Anyone experienced with extra large workshop builds in a UK garden?

[Peterm1000]

nope - permitted is exactly that...
there are a number of potential complications though - from PD (Permitted Development) having been removed (tends to be on more recent new builds, but could happen as a part of an earlier planning permission grant) - to possible issues if in a conservation area, to curtilage etc. of listed buildings - so it isn't an absolute always yes, but generally speaking you are allowed to do what you like if it meets the permitted development rules - and then building control manages how safe / standards / etc.



I would tend to agree, but it does depend a lot on the context - for example a village in which I lived was in a farming area, some of the older properties did have actual farm buildings of this type of size in their gardens - in another road, you drive into what appears to be a suburban detached house driveway, but go past the house and you are in their farmyard with a number of farm buildings - very different from road to behind... equally other areas may have industrial buildings - if you look at the history of London it is packed with buildings in certain areas where you have houses on the street, but go down an alleyway and you are in a Victorian factory of some type... so it is not unknown, and the OP seems comfortable that it won't be an issue - his biggest concern is whether he might buy the property and then not get planning... ultimately if he can build under PD then that is not an issue - up to him how he might manage neighbourly relationships...

and I would be very jealous of 3,000sqft of space!

I think permitted development allows the building to be built, but there are all kinds of restrictions about how it can be used. You can't do anything commercial and if you are causing a "nuisance" by running power tools 8 hours a day in a building that isn't noise-proof or doing work that results in foul smells or sending smoke or dust out into the atmosphere, they will have reason to complain and get an enforcement notice.

In other words, you might be able to build it, but if you do any kind of activity that such a building might be built for, then the council can stop you using it.

I would say it's a pretty high risk project

 

[Peterm1000]

Take a look at the plans in the attached - this doesn't look that different in size to what you are planning... 4.2 metres high.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...mission-granted-now-for-building-regs.130617/

 

[doctor Bob]

Take a look at the plans in the attached - this doesn't look that different in size to what you are planning... 4.2 metres high.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...mission-granted-now-for-building-regs.130617/

Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.

I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.

 

[akirk]

I think permitted development allows the building to be built, but there are all kinds of restrictions about how it can be used. You can't do anything commercial and if you are causing a "nuisance" by running power tools 8 hours a day in a building that isn't noise-proof or doing work that results in foul smells or sending smoke or dust out into the atmosphere, they will have reason to complain and get an enforcement notice.

In other words, you might be able to build it, but if you do any kind of activity that such a building might be built for, then the council can stop you using it.

I would say it's a pretty high risk project

I would agree - and there is a challenge in knowing where boundaries sit between hobby / personal use / commercial - and where commercial would require a change of use, personal or hobby use would not - yet there is no reason why a hobby use shouldn't use exactly the same machines as a commercial outfit - perhaps there will be a difference in not having lorries arriving to unload / load items etc. - but the noise from machines could be the same...

however I think that if the OP were to build this (and based on simply the legal position, not whether it is friendly to neighbours or not), then it could be challenging for neighbours to stop it - noise and pollution can both be an issue, but can also take long battles to enforce and the council has some powers but not absolute...

Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.

I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.

If it falls under permitted development, then why would it not be allowed - the OP can (having bought the house) just crack on - he would need to notify building control - usually in advance, though there is a process for doing it retrospectively, and with the scale of it, you can expect that they might mention it to planning... but permitted development does allow you to build over 50% of your plot outside the footprint of the original house... (so any extensions come off that amount first)

the link I gave earlier is to a government partnership website offering guidance...
more detail can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/830643/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

Class E is the relevant class whose conditions need to be met and that does start with:
41 Class E – buildings etc This provides permitted development rights within the curtilage of a house for: (a)any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure; or

the key here is purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse - so hobby use = okay / commercial is not = planning needed... if the OP is confident he can prove that space is for hobby, then he shouldn't have an issue... but I suspect he will have a discussion at the very least...

I think that there is an instinctive reaction which is perhaps horrified at the idea of large buildings with tools in a residential area - but that doesn't mean that it isn't allowed - it is remarkable actually what is allowed under PD.

To give one example - I know someone who owns / keeps / restores full size steam engines in what is effectively an agricultural barn in the garden of their bungalow... needs quite a large building to do that - and totally hobby, not commercial. I know someone else building his own aeroplane... we are a nation which allows for a certain degree of eccentricity and not having everyone exactly the same...

 

[doctor Bob]

Be an interesting building that size with a max height of 2.5m.
As it's max 5ft from boundry.

 

[akirk]

Hence my suggestion of losing c. 1.5 foot either side - ultimately measurements are presumably rough until the house is owned and the OP has something accurate to measure with - I wouldn’t base anything on estate agent’s details!

 

[Roseland 2]

Akirk says it all very well. But do check that Permitted Development rights have not been removed (as they have where I live) under an Article 4 Direction. Your council’s online mapping service should show you this. If in doubt apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development.

Andrew

 

[TomGW]

For my sins I am a planning consultant, in NI, but the regulations are broadly the same.
My best advice would be to design and secure a Certificate of Lawfulness for a PD building of the size you want, even though keeping within PD limits may result in cause engineering expense or compromises. Having secured the principle of development you could then apply for planning permission for an alternative design which may be higher but less complex. The consideration of your application must then be limited to the comparison of your secured PD position and the new proposal and a refusal could only be sustained if the difference was ‘material’ in itself. This is the way to ensure that your planning application can only focus on the height aspect and not the overall floor area.

 

[Ollie78]

Build it underground, like a batcave or thunderbirds base. Just leave a small permitted development sized shed/ garage on top !!

Personally, I think the planning departments and listed building nonsense should be removed, if its your land that you paid for you should be able to do as you please as long as it is safely built.

Good luck.

 

[Sachakins]

I don't think I am understanding things from a neighbour point of view.......
........
For the record I live in a very low income town where people are not so much concerned with keeping up appearances and what people might think at the next dinner party

And just why does that make a difference?
Just because it's a low income does not mean they don't have pride and enjoyment it what they can do, and have the right to be concerned.
If a person living in the area your suggesting for your development is reading this, your statement could really inflame them, as implying that somehow they are lesser person for lacking money.

I donþ think that last phrase in your post does you any favours at all.

 

[Chris152]

I wouldn't be happy with a neighbour building that anywhere near me - even if they plan to sit and quietly paint watercolours in it, they could sell up in a year's time and who know what activities a shed like that could attract? Oooh, that place has an enormous workshop in the garden, I'll buy that one and spend all day using my industrial kit etc in there, just as a hobby of course. Endless possibilities for future disputes.

 

[RobinBHM]

For my sins I am a planning consultant, in NI, but the regulations are broadly the same.
My best advice would be to design and secure a Certificate of Lawfulness for a PD building of the size you want, even though keeping within PD limits may result in cause engineering expense or compromises. Having secured the principle of development you could then apply for planning permission for an alternative design which may be higher but less complex. The consideration of your application must then be limited to the comparison of your secured PD position and the new proposal and a refusal could only be sustained if the difference was ‘material’ in itself. This is the way to ensure that your planning application can only focus on the height aspect and not the overall floor area.

This seems the most pragmatic route.

Securing a certificate of lawfulness first then a full planning app for a preferred scheme provides an automatic fall back position.

The irony of Permitted Development is some pretty large an ugly extensions can be built and often are, because planners turn down a more attractive scheme because it falls slightly outside their local planning framework.

I hate all these extensions with silly low pitches

 

[RobinBHM]

I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm

It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.

 

[Peterm1000]

Peter that's 9x7m, the proposal by the OP is 28m x 8.5m, 4 times bigger.

I can't believe anyone thinks this is going to be allowed, any money spent on planners, applications is a pure waste of time.

It was the 7 metres width that interested me. I did not think you could get a reasonable roofline at that width and stay under 4 metres. But it appears you can...

 

[AlanY]

I think I would be having words with a neighbour who decided to put up a 4.5m high structure 6 feet from my boundary and which stretched more than half-way down my garden. Aside from the impact on property value, if my garden is west-facing, that would put most of my garden in shade for most of the day. Permitted development be damned, that would not be acceptable.

 

[Chris152]

I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm

It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.

Long, but narrow.

 

[doctor Bob]

I have a workshop on a farm that's 7.5m x 28mm

It's pretty damn big, it wouldn't look great stuck in a back garden.

I'm going to guess you make snooker cues and fishing rods as a hobby

 

[Peterm1000]

I think I would be having words with a neighbour who decided to put up a 4.5m high structure 6 feet from my boundary and which stretched more than half-way down my garden. Aside from the impact on property value, if my garden is west-facing, that would put most of my garden in shade for most of the day. Permitted development be damned, that would not be acceptable.

It's no more than 2.5 metres high 2 metres from your boundary. The 4 metres is the maximum height of the roof which is probably 5 metres from your property. It's unlikely to make any difference to sunlight in your garden but it would obviously be visible.

 

[recipio]

I don't want to hijack this thread but is it possible to build a mezzanine type structure with an industrial lift to cut down on the floor area. ? I would ask the building companies but they are all closed at present.

 

[akirk]

I don't want to hijack this thread but is it possible to build a mezzanine type structure with an industrial lift to cut down on the floor area. ? I would ask the building companies but they are all closed at present.

That would definitely need planning - one of the requirements of permitted development is single storey and while it might be argued to be that I think you would also struggle to get a mezzanine layer into PD height...