Marcusthehat
Established Member
From an unbiased users purely pragmatic perspective, see link;
Seemed to be "on the money" to me.
Mth
Seemed to be "on the money" to me.
Mth
Another Sharpening Thread - Consideration of Cost
- Thread starter D_W
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
A very orthodox modern sharpener. The chaps who built the original boat would have been utterly mystified by the unnecessarily extravagant kit, the slowness and the whole ritualistic fuss!
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Bruce Mack
Established Member
I hope I'm not off topic but a few years ago I acquired 2 heavy, ground 11 x 2 1/2" cast iron plates to try diamond paste sharpening. Together with paste the cost was about $120. I settled on 2000 grit paste alone, using 1 plate. The 14000 grit proved unnecessary as only the polish at the very edge of the tool affected the sharpness. The plate sits in the open, uncovered and exposed to dust which I may or may not remove before using. The blackened slurry from previous usage is removed only if I have to refresh the paste and this is done infrequently. 3-4 drops of oil restore the lubricity and sideswipes for the plane irons, back and forth for the narrower chisels, quickly raise a burr on the backside, which I remove on the same iron plate. The edge is honed with 20 swipes on leather with chromium oxide honing compound, or with 4-5 seconds against a cloth buffer wheel prepped with the same CrO2 or another compound such as Autosol. I credit DW with developing and/or refining the buffing technique. I find it quick and easy to do.
I traded my many hundred dollars of guides and waterstones with their fussiness and variable results for the above faultless process, even in the hands of an old coot. It is an OCD dream to be able to do so. Now if I even think "dull" I sharpen and return to work in 2-3 minutes.
I traded my many hundred dollars of guides and waterstones with their fussiness and variable results for the above faultless process, even in the hands of an old coot. It is an OCD dream to be able to do so. Now if I even think "dull" I sharpen and return to work in 2-3 minutes.
Perfect. there's a grind here and there, but not that often and then exactly what you say - one hone, one polish and the polish will address the tip of the tool. The honing preps for treatment of the tip of the tool and the two don't try to duplicate each other.
I liked very fine diamonds on cast, but I can't keep the shop clean enough to do it. So it becomes an either or. Either a fine compound to do the job somewhere else or the diamonds. Doing both is like trying to get the mail twice. you get the same amount of mail just getting it once.
If anyone is reading what bruce says and wants to use something like a freshly lapped plane sole, it'll be a no go. Cast iron is hard enough to deflect edges - a fresh piece of newly ground cast has a surface finish that prevents that from happening. I have no idea what it costs to get a piece of cast ground dead flat and with a good surface finish now, but phil gave me the plate that I have and said something like the scrap was near free and getting a bunch blanchard ground finely was about $40 each. I tried on bits of mild steel and this or that prior to getting the piece of cast from Phil and was surprised how much of a difference it made. My first surface ground piece of steel actually raised a burr on japanese chisels and I thought that someone ripped me off and sold me coarse diamonds. Luckily, I didn't go so far as to contest listing that I got the diamonds from.
That $40 ground piece of cast has a higher top end and wider applicability than any stone I've seen at any cost, whether it's $100 or $400.
I liked very fine diamonds on cast, but I can't keep the shop clean enough to do it. So it becomes an either or. Either a fine compound to do the job somewhere else or the diamonds. Doing both is like trying to get the mail twice. you get the same amount of mail just getting it once.
If anyone is reading what bruce says and wants to use something like a freshly lapped plane sole, it'll be a no go. Cast iron is hard enough to deflect edges - a fresh piece of newly ground cast has a surface finish that prevents that from happening. I have no idea what it costs to get a piece of cast ground dead flat and with a good surface finish now, but phil gave me the plate that I have and said something like the scrap was near free and getting a bunch blanchard ground finely was about $40 each. I tried on bits of mild steel and this or that prior to getting the piece of cast from Phil and was surprised how much of a difference it made. My first surface ground piece of steel actually raised a burr on japanese chisels and I thought that someone ripped me off and sold me coarse diamonds. Luckily, I didn't go so far as to contest listing that I got the diamonds from.
That $40 ground piece of cast has a higher top end and wider applicability than any stone I've seen at any cost, whether it's $100 or $400.
This idea works for knives, too. I found a banana (carry over comment from the hand work thread).
Put the phone on the counter, held the paring knife upside down and dropped the banana about 2 feet. Even a little green.
The edge of the knife is designed to allow quick honing and then edge finishing. The honing becomes the grind in this case because the bevel is so thin - india "grind", quick treatment of the tip with a ceramic hone from china (nothing expensive) and pass across a 5 micron buff.
The principles of dealing with the outcome and objective instead of the method allow for application far beyond just how each tool is handled with a separate process.
If the buffer is counted, the total cost is about $100 for the sharpening materials. I've had the buffer for a long time, though, and didn't get it to sharpen. I got it to put a wire wheel on to remove rust. That's not a great idea because my fingers would always find the wire on the corners, which isn't injurious, but it is filthy and about as alarming as getting an electric shock. And potentially damaging to eyes of not wearing eye protection (launching wire missiles).
Put the phone on the counter, held the paring knife upside down and dropped the banana about 2 feet. Even a little green.
The edge of the knife is designed to allow quick honing and then edge finishing. The honing becomes the grind in this case because the bevel is so thin - india "grind", quick treatment of the tip with a ceramic hone from china (nothing expensive) and pass across a 5 micron buff.
The principles of dealing with the outcome and objective instead of the method allow for application far beyond just how each tool is handled with a separate process.
If the buffer is counted, the total cost is about $100 for the sharpening materials. I've had the buffer for a long time, though, and didn't get it to sharpen. I got it to put a wire wheel on to remove rust. That's not a great idea because my fingers would always find the wire on the corners, which isn't injurious, but it is filthy and about as alarming as getting an electric shock. And potentially damaging to eyes of not wearing eye protection (launching wire missiles).
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Sounds like you do much the same as I do but on Norton India oil stones and without the diamonds. It works really well and is a lot cheaper - they can last for life in fact!
Pity they went so much out of fashion.
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raffo
Established Member
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I was worried about the banana - sort of followed it down part of the way, too and didn't know I was doing that. Chicken, I guess!
I thought the plate would make it look less filthy if it landed neatly on it.
First one I tried to drop less carefully, 85% of the banana on one side of the blade, 15% on the other.
I dropped the second part and then did it. No more chances to get this perfect - bananas give me a bit of a stomach ache if eaten like the internet vegans do.
I think maybe it doesn't take that much sharpness to pass this test. The label is more resistant to cutting than the banana - by far.
raffo
Established Member
How about more dramatic tests?
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
Oh FFS - why do people keep on banging on about sharpening?
Mostly because nobody is actually making anything and sharing it in this section.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
They never did in the past. Hardly gets a mention in the old books - just simple advice for beginners in a paragraph or two. Even the old magazines (written for amateurs) never went into great detail. It was taken for granted that any fool could do it!
Begs the question - did they know something which has now been forgotten?
I think not. It's more that we are being misinformed by armies of maniacal enthusiasts new to the craft. They have struggled with it, everybody does at first, but reacted by inventing ever more ludicrous theories and expensive ways of doing some very simple but essential things.
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Argus
Established Member
I like to chop bits off planks of wood for fun and when my chisels and other stuff get a bit blunt (and I don't like the look of the bits that come off any more), I rub the blade up and down on a Diamond thing until it looks a bit shiny on the end......, then I remembered watching an old chippy who used to slap his chisels sideways on an old chunk of leather, so I did that, too.
It worked!
They chop bits off planks again!
Took all of 40-odd seconds.
I can’t believe how complex all that was and the ‘magic’ behind it is way beyond me.
But, I prefer chopping bits off a plank with a chisel more than rubbing it up and down on the Diamond thing.,
It worked!
They chop bits off planks again!
Took all of 40-odd seconds.
I can’t believe how complex all that was and the ‘magic’ behind it is way beyond me.
But, I prefer chopping bits off a plank with a chisel more than rubbing it up and down on the Diamond thing.,
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Well there you go!
People prefer not doing too much sharpening so much that they'll do it more and more often by doing "less".
Out of a guide, what bruce relayed is less than a minute. I don't know what an old chippy is, but maybe a site worker?
Platitudes don't amount to much.
Nicholson precisely describes sharpening and tool setup. It's not as wide open as whatever anything goes method is available now. Hasluck spends *pages* on it. Holtzappfel pretty much perfectly describes hand plane function and also spends pages on discussing sharpening, all the way down to burring the edge on paring chisels to keep them in the cut.
Both describe accurate grinding and treating only the tip of the tool with a fine stone, not the sellers or grimsdale stuff, which takes longer and yields a poorer result. It should be a clue for people.
I've definitely seen people who had trouble sharpening - they're usually sold by the sellers or grimsdale stuff. No kidding. They think they're going to sharpen the entire iron by hand and skip a grinder and they can't keep ahead of losing clearance or steepening the tool tip, shortening working time and wasting time rubbing a stone around.
When I send them a tool back, I grind it back and spend about 1 minute honing and finishing the edge, and I usually hear about how long the iron lasted (especially if I send a replacement iron for one that's not that great) - the biggest difference is I sharpened the way I do, and they sharpened the way you do. It's not generally the iron.
But maybe this stuff is OK if you generally do coarse work or work mostly with power tools. I don't do much of either of those.
Argus
Established Member
A 'Chippy' is
- A chip-shop - uniquely a culinary venue that sells fish and chips. (Not one of these at all, in this context).
- A Carpenter. Often found roaming in the wild on building sites, but can exist in a variety of habitats. The traditional British variety is often seen with a cup of tea in his hand, a pencil behind one ear with a roll-up, dangling as he speaks.
Thanks for the definition. I've seen it a lot - term is just "carpenter" here, but old timer like you say who would match someone like Larry Huan ("I don't want to see anything but as__s and elbows on the job site" - but with more hand tools) was gone by the 80s. Not sure when they stopped using hand tools for much - probably around 1930.
Sometimes I consider that everyone is working dried sawn hardwoods at the bench in 2022, and that's not what everyone likes. My comments about sharpening and efficiency are on limiting work both at the stones and in the wood at the bench.
Site union carpenters here (think commercial work, not building houses but rather installing interior bits - often metal interior bits) are still required to have chisels. I can't say what they do as I had a chance to talk to a journeyman at a wedding once and told him I made tools. He said something about having chisels, which surprised me, and then said that he hadn't sharpened them for as long as he could remember, at least many years.
Carpenter in the US now from the union side is probably an $80 or $90 an hour wage package, so no bueno on houses. Their presence on commercial sites ensures good quality, workmanship and consistent standards. And they work hard.
thetyreman
Established Member
chippy is also a word for joiner as well, it's just common slang basically it just means anyone who works with a chisel, and creates 'chips' out of the wood.
