Animal glues

[flintandsteel]

When I have time (a rare commodity) I restore antique pistols and muskets.
For gluing up timber I usually use rapid set PVA but am thinking to give animal glues a try as being more in keeping.
Do they all work well on timber or are there different types such as Bovine and Rabbit.
Will the take a stain either in preparing or once dried?
Anything else to consider?

 

[Droogs]

I tend to use rabbit for bonding metal to wood such as inlays or small plates etc and cow for bonding wood or veneer.

 

[profchris]

I use animal glue (bone or hide) in instrument making, and I've read a lot about fish glue though don't use it myself.

They all work well on wood-to-wood joints, though oily woods present the same problems as they do for other glues - they must have freshly scraped or sanded surfaced, and all woods glue better with fresh surfaces.

So far as I know, fish glue is the only one with slight differences - some instrument makers report problems with joints softening in warm, humid climates, others seem to have no difficulties in the same conditions.

Animal glues are not ideal if the object gets wet, as might happen to gunstocks if the gun is regularly used for shooting in wet weather. Otherwise, the joints can last for centuries.

Hot animal glue has a bit of a learning curve, as the joint has to be complete and clamped before the glue gels. Dry runs and use of gentle heat can be helpful.

 

[flintandsteel]

Thanks gents
I can see 2 problems (for me) using it then.
Inletting new wood isn't an issue but cleaning up old brakes (often on a curved section) is. With a break it's often a question of removing old glue (anything from contact adhesive, maybe animal glue, araldite and pva). Ideally when clean the 2 pieces mate evenly and the gap disappears (not always).
Looks like animal glue isn't the answer for me. Back to stained PVE I think.

 

[GuitardoctorW7]

When I have time (a rare commodity) I restore antique pistols and muskets.
For gluing up timber I usually use rapid set PVA but am thinking to give animal glues a try as being more in keeping.
Do they all work well on timber or are there different types such as Bovine and Rabbit.
Will the take a stain either in preparing or once dried?
Anything else to consider?

I quite like using Fish glue, saves having to heat hide glue

 

[Exluthier]

I have always used hide glues of various strengths, but have varied the strength by simple dilution of the completed glue batch. Glue manufacturers now advertise their various strengths, which I’m sure some people rely on, but whenever I’ve needed glues that formed slightly less strong bonds, I’ve used rabbit glue, and—for even lighter work—the rare but still-available fish bladder glue Seccotine. For historically important pieces, you can use any of these without worrying too much as to authenticity and/or undo-ability. Users of these glues tend to think it unwise to lick one’s fingers, and—speaking personally—I avoid using Seccotine on a day when fish is on the menu …

 

[Devmeister]

Hide glue is the traditional glue before the PVA glues came out. It is known as a revers-able glue in that you can take it apart with steam and hot water. It should be used only when doing repairs to valuable antiques.

Fish glue has been used for small repairs such as a splintered edge.

Rabbit glue is the traditional glue used by gilders to apply gold leaf.

Veneer work often used hide glue. It was the only glue when veneer hammers were used. Not really a hammer but a traditional tool for applying veneer. It is a much stiffer glue then PVA so there is less creep in curved surfaces.

Modern PVA glues are one of the best for general glue up work. It’s water resistance varies by formula. Titebond One is not water resistant. Titebond Three is virtually water proof when dry but I would not use it below the water line. Excellent for architectural work such as outside doors.

Epoxy such as T105 is the ultimate water proof glue. It’s a mess and needs acetone to clean up. Squeeze out has wicked effects on sizing effects which can cause staining and finishing issues.

Resourceinol is one of my favorite glues. It cleans up with water before it kicks but then it’s water proof below the water line. It’s a first generation epoxy variant used in WW2 to build boats and the mosquito airplane. It’s very rigid, fireproof and accepted for structural applications. LVL lumber is glued up using it and Russian made Baltic birch is layer up with it. Leaves a distinct brown glue line.

I have virtually never used gorilla glue and don’t think much of it. Resourceinol is getting much harder to find due to environmental issues.

Violin makers use hide glue as it’s not uncommon to have to take them apart for repairs. They also claim sound issues or differences but I cannot hear those details.

For wood filler I often fall back on hide glue and sawdust. Seems to work better than many modern fillets.

 

[Exluthier]

Hide glue is the traditional glue before the PVA glues came out. It is known as a revers-able glue in that you can take it apart with steam and hot water. It should be used only when doing repairs to valuable antiques.

Fish glue has been used for small repairs such as a splintered edge.

Rabbit glue is the traditional glue used by gilders to apply gold leaf.

Veneer work often used hide glue. It was the only glue when veneer hammers were used. Not really a hammer but a traditional tool for applying veneer. It is a much stiffer glue then PVA so there is less creep in curved surfaces.

Modern PVA glues are one of the best for general glue up work. It’s water resistance varies by formula. Titebond One is not water resistant. Titebond Three is virtually water proof when dry but I would not use it below the water line. Excellent for architectural work such as outside doors.

Epoxy such as T105 is the ultimate water proof glue. It’s a mess and needs acetone to clean up. Squeeze out has wicked effects on sizing effects which can cause staining and finishing issues.

Resourceinol is one of my favorite glues. It cleans up with water before it kicks but then it’s water proof below the water line. It’s a first generation epoxy variant used in WW2 to build boats and the mosquito airplane. It’s very rigid, fireproof and accepted for structural applications. LVL lumber is glued up using it and Russian made Baltic birch is layer up with it. Leaves a distinct brown glue line.

I have virtually never used gorilla glue and don’t think much of it. Resourceinol is getting much harder to find due to environmental issues.

Violin makers use hide glue as it’s not uncommon to have to take them apart for repairs. They also claim sound issues or differences but I cannot hear those details.

For wood filler I often fall back on hide glue and sawdust. Seems to work better than many modern fillets.

Yep! ‘In glue and dust we put our trust’!

But just a (repeated, with apologies) note about PVA glues; the ones with the aromatic bond at molecular level (usually the white PVA glues) are not waterproof and will readily creep under clamping pressure. The yellow PVA glues are more waterproof ( though not completely) and do not creep under pressure as they have a different (and creep-resistant) aliphatic bond. I have used both, but never on instruments or antiques.

 

[recipio]

As a boxmaker I've gone over to using hide glue. If you allow PVA to dry on a veneer It's virtually impossible to get it off without over sanding the veneer. The long open time of one hour will help as well.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

As a boxmaker I've gone over to using hide glue. If you allow PVA to dry on a veneer It's virtually impossible to get it off without over sanding the veneer. The long open time of one hour will help as well.

I'm curious, and maybe a bit puzzled. Which adhesive are you saying has an open time of one hour? I ask, because in my experience none of a) PVA adhesive, b) hot hide glue, or c) liquid hide glue, have open time up to one hour. Could you please clarify your meaning. Thanks. Slainte.

 

[recipio]

I'm curious, and maybe a bit puzzled. Which adhesive are you saying has an open time of one hour? I ask, because in my experience none of a) PVA adhesive, b) hot hide glue, or c) liquid hide glue, have open times have open time up to one hour. Could you please clarify your meaning. Thanks. Slainte.

I've just started to use 'Old Brown Glue ' - an American product. It quotes an open time of 15 -45 mins but with the humidity in my workshop I find it takes about an hour. It cleans up with water unlike dried on PVA

 

[Devmeister]

I have never used pre mix hide glue as I don’t trust it. It may be the same but I am not sure.

White glue and water are mixed to make “sizing”. It is used like paint to prepare a surface for glidding with leaf metal like gold.

As a result I call stray squeeze out as having a “sizing effect”. This area must be sanded out or else stain and linseed oil will have blotchibg issues.

White glue is often used in dovetail construction as it leaves an almost transparent glue line.

I know the label states open time but I know of no glues with an open time of one hour. T105 epoxy does take as much as eight hours to set up and cure. So I use it only when needed. Resourcinol is just as bad. Clamp up and go to bed for the next day.

One advantage of hide glue is that it can be prepared in various densities for varying strengths from veneer hammering to joinery.

For me veneer is re-sawed and sanded on a drum sander. No thinner than 62 thousandth. Modern commercial veneer is applied to MDF sheets and it’s very very thin. Very easy to get a burn through. These products have their place esp in commercial fitment but I tend to avoid them these days. Spent to much time on CNC beam saws and German CNC routers. Melamine is the worst and it’s just evil. We even had a special yellow glue for use with melamine.

These days my go to glue is titebond Three as it as a longer open time and the best water resistance. Then titebond Two. For fancy work like high end reproduction furniture, I reach for hide glue and the double boiler to keep it hot. If the work is never to come apart like laid up table tops or mortise tennon with draw bore pins, the yellow glue is best.

But I do find hide glue and sawdust to function as an excellent filler. It behaves better with linseed oil and stain. These days my first finish is usually linseed oil followed by shellac. Simple. I have had rotten success with stain. Often it looks like a rub down with dog manure. Then add in sizing effects and filler areas. The linseed oil penetrates and protects. It’s not a top coat. It darkens the wood and pops the grain. It works with the wood. Tried and true makes an oil varnish that I also like…..esp on cherry.

There are so many modern glues these days that it can be very confusing. So I stick with what I learned in the trade. Forgive the pun. We bought titebond in 5 gallon drums. Last place I worked we had 250 gallon drums of a pink contact adhesive made by Wilson arts. Water soluble. Used it on plam lay ups not joinery. Dont know if it’s worthwhile or not. At high country mill works, we used titebond for the same thing. Takes longer to dry but performed better. You really see the quality of a lay up when you have to machine parts on a CNC! Better vacuum bed behavior and fewer issues with delamination defects.

 

[thetyreman]

I know this is an old thread now but was going to start a new one, does anyone have any tips on making hide glue, I was thinking of buying a wax warmer for it, would it be adequate enough for melting it? they often have variable temperatures and I will only be making it in pretty small quantities, mainly for hammer veneering and also guitar making.

 

[Ttrees]

I know this is an old thread now but was going to start a new one, does anyone have any tips on making hide glue, I was thinking of buying a wax warmer for it, would it be adequate enough for melting it? they often have variable temperatures and I will only be making it in pretty small quantities, mainly for hammer veneering and also guitar making.

Pity that episode of benchtalk 101 was taken down.
Perhaps asking one of the lads to see if you can get it for yourself.
It was the best info on the subject I've ever seen, by a longshot.
I'd like to watch it again, but no need to use the stuff for a long time.
I suggest strictly asking on a...for your eyes only basis
a link or whatever likely might pop up.
Shame it was removed, I found it the most interesting of the lot.

Tom

 

[profchris]

I know this is an old thread now but was going to start a new one, does anyone have any tips on making hide glue, I was thinking of buying a wax warmer for it, would it be adequate enough for melting it? they often have variable temperatures and I will only be making it in pretty small quantities, mainly for hammer veneering and also guitar making.

I invested, ooh, maybe £2 in a second hand baby bottle warmer. Does the job perfectly.

 

[kinverkid]

I know this is an old thread now but was going to start a new one, does anyone have any tips on making hide glue, I was thinking of buying a wax warmer for it, would it be adequate enough for melting it? they often have variable temperatures and I will only be making it in pretty small quantities, mainly for hammer veneering and also guitar making.

I have a wax warmer I use to make my own finishes and abrasive pastes. Comes in handy sometimes to quickly mix a small pot of hide glue.

 

[loftyhermes]

Saw an episode of The Repair Shop, in which Will Kirk had his glue in a slow cooker.