Angles on tools.....

[xy mosian]

Spot on jacob, what I forgot to say was the bevel I was refering to was the grinding bevel, at 25 degrees.

xy

 

[Jacob]

Spot on jacob, what I forgot to say was the bevel I was refering to was the grinding bevel, at 25 degrees.

xy

Yes I realise that. But if you can hit 30º the grinding angle needs only to be less than 30º - by any amount to suit yourself (within reason). 25º is arbitrary and suits jig users with their various setting devices and gadgets.
So you could grind at 29º just behind the edge, then 28º a bit further back, then 27º , down to 0º - and end up with a rounded bevel :shock: :shock: Wouldn't matter at all. :lol:

 

[xy mosian]

More wise words jacob.

Personally I think we all get a little hung up about precise angles. I'll bet a shiny shilling the guy in this video
just-a-guy-making-chess-pieces-t55352.html doesn't know what angle his bevels are. Mind you I am not a beginner at sharpening. For a beginner all this talk about precise angles must be confusing.
In the end if the edge is sharp it will work. Yes the edge holding, use with difficult timber and all that could well be improved by the use of different angles, but for a complete novice that is surely not terribly important. Get a sharp edge use it, find a snag/problem then learn how to get round it. In terms of planes, where the angle of attack of the blade is normally fixed, the only criteria is that the sharpened edge comes into contact with the wood. If the heal of the bevel comes into contact with the wood the plane 'will not work'.

xy

 

[DTR]

For a beginner all this talk about precise angles must be confusing.

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. I very much am a beginner but I've not really seen any ferocious debates or conflicting info over precise angles. Sharpening mediums on the other hand :shock:

 

[xy mosian]

For a beginner all this talk about precise angles must be confusing.

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. I very much am a beginner but I've not really seen any ferocious debates or conflicting info over precise angles. Sharpening mediums on the other hand :shock:

Fair enough, I must have imagined posts. But sharpening mediums? Now there is a can of worms!

xy

 

[condeesteso]

This appears to be about sharpening, and there is one issue I think that is hardly ever made clear. There is only one angle that really matters - the one that forms the cutting edge. The angle or angles (many sometimes) behind that are of no real importance BUT obviously have to be less than the main one- so they ultimately define the least that the final one can be.
So when we all talk about hand v jig, hand v machine (e.g. Tormek) - are we talking about the final edge?
I am known to use jigs often to reform the primary (old tools needing care, mainly). I do not use a machine (electric grinder etc) of any kind - that is just my choice. I hone by hand often, I mean by that I put the final edge on without a jig of any sort. But sometimes I use a jig for that too, particularly on more specialist chisels say.
Personally I find the generalisations in this topic at best confusing. I have no time at all for hand-grinding primaries and anyone trying to sell me on that will need some very good arguments indeed. But if this is about the speed and maybe the need (on 'site' say) to re-tune an edge quickly without jigs etc... then I agree.
And does anyone fancy presenting the case for hand-sharpening full stop... I mean all primaries, everything? Personally, I stand by the notion that the edge is what matters. How you got there is just about interesting... zzzzzzzzzz...at best.

 

[LENPAM]

I have a shop full of infill planes that back up your theory and mine with multiple bevels one on top the other but all work remarkably well with just the edge honed,Len

 

[Jacob]

.
And does anyone fancy presenting the case for hand-sharpening full stop... I mean all primaries, everything? .....

You can choose not to use machines, or if you don't have them the choice is made for you. No problem really.
The secret is to avoid the modern crazy sharpening routine where you hone the edge as necessary but it gets gradually bigger and more difficult to hone until you reach the point where it needs re-grinding.
Ridiculous! Very stupid sharpening, whose childish idea was this? :roll:
Instead you hone as necessary, but also back off a bit of the bevel at the same time, so that it does not get progressively worse. Simple as that.
It's "repeatable" (jig users favourite word :lol: ) i.e. you do it the same way everytime.
With smaller chisels and thin plane blades you can do it all with one grit. Bigger tools and you back off on a coarser grit.
The case for doing this as a matter of course is that it keeps things simple (e.g. one 2 sided stone) and becomes a completely natural unproblematic routine.
Robin Wood's blog. http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... s-for.html
Look at them all free-handing away! Same with oil stones if that's what you have or are used to.

 

[bugbear]

Ridiculous! Very stupid sharpening, whose childish idea was this? :roll:

Charles Hayward, amongst others. As always, references available, not just offensively expressed opinions.

Unless, of course, this was another of your "deliberately provocative" posts, in which case I suggest you report your own post to a moderator. :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Thanks Jacob, for the link to the blog post about the Japanese carpenters. I love how they reached such an incredible state of zen where they can even answer the phone without loosing karma points!

I also love how they use "crazy sharpening routines", like having lots of stones with different grits and flattening the stones with diamond plates all the time. It's good to see that you recommend this too, because you did send us this link.

I'm going to have a further look at Robin Wood's blog, I am very interested in green woodworking.

 

[Jacob]

.......
I also love how they use "crazy sharpening routines", like having lots of stones with different grits and flattening the stones with diamond plates all the time. It's good to see that you recommend this too, because you did send us this link......

Shouldn't take it so literally! They freehand, which means they don't need to "flatten" quite as flat as jig users. But they do need to "refresh" which is almost but not quite the same thing.

 

[bugbear]

They freehand, which means they don't need to "flatten" quite as flat as jig

If you want a straight cutting edge you need a flat stone. Doesn't matter wether your're using a jig or your hands.

Simple.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Ridiculous! Very stupid sharpening, whose childish idea was this? :roll:

Charles Hayward, amongst others. .......

My feeling is that Hayward (and the others) when called upon to describe a sharpening technique tend to be very basic. Quite right too, as those who actually need the instruction have to start with something they can manage.
But once they are in control they can move on, if they want to, or find a reason to.
Extending a (so-called) primary bevel to the point where it gets difficult and needs grinding is clumsy and unnecessary IMHO.
These texts are not sacred and the writers are never omniscient, omnipotent and can even be just plain wrong.

 

[condeesteso]

Hi all... when I said 'anyone', I did actually mean Jacob. And I think that in any context other than face-to-face, 'childish' and 'stupid' is abrasive and unnecessary..
In my post above I did everything possible to differentiate between primary (or primaries, multiple) and the final honed edge. Here's a pic of 3 chisels I have just acquired and will deal with soon:

I'll re-post pics after fixing, if you like? (and I do call what needs to be done to these three, FIXING.)

There's no point arguing with jacob, he's a last word master. But I re-state that it's the result that matters, to be achieved in a reasonable time. So, Jacob... now show us your best - say a couple of chisels and a plane iron. And do try to concentrate on the issues of the primary or primaries, as we seem to agree on the forming of the final honed edge.

And by the way, I notice in Jacob's vid, they are in a field. I think that tells us all something.

 

[Jacob]

..... So, Jacob... now show us your best - say a couple of chisels and a plane iron. .......

I wrote it all up on a web page here http://www.owdman.co.uk/howto/howto.htm
A bit out of date - I keep meaning to add better photos and shorten the text but basically no change. All my bevels are rounded :shock: i.e. have 30º edge and bevel falling away to lower angles NB they are all sharp.
I've experimented with various stones (and machines, belt sander is good - purpose built Sorby proedge better) and it's on going. I haven't tried waterstones yet but might do if I could fit up a big sink with running water in a convenient spot. Just "splashing a bit on" doesn't sound good enough.

PS looking at your knackered chisels I even might start with an eclipse jig set at 30º, just to show up the shape. Just a quick pass to tell the tale. Freehand thereafter. I haven't got one in that bad a condition so I can't snap a demo - but you could with your chisels. Just a quick pass set at 30º and you get a nice clean bevel showing up how badly it was done before.

 

[Corneel]

I would love to have running water in my shop too. But that's not gona happen. In the mean time I am happy with a spray bottle. Helps to keep your hands dry too. My sharpening station is just an old kitchen table. It gets rather dirty, but all the wate'r does no harm to the surface yet.

 

[studders]

There's no point arguing with jacob, he's a last word master.

Google says...

Did you mean master baiter?

 

[Jacob]

:lol:
More baited against than baiting.

 

[Modernist]

I think Jacob has a point that the much vaunted mantra of repeatability results in an ever increasing bevel which takes longer to sharpen unless you take to the grinder regularly. A little bit of flexibility can go a long way towards a practical solution - and I still don't like rounded bevels :lol:

 

[studders]

I think Jacob has a point that the much vaunted mantra of repeatability results in an ever increasing bevel which takes longer to sharpen unless you take to the grinder regularly. A little bit of flexibility can go a long way towards a practical solution - and I still don't like rounded bevels :lol:

I must confess I don't get the 'absolute/accurate repeatability' thing really. Most often 'close enough' does for me. To keep the micro bevel a sensible size I tend to do a half dozen or so strokes on the primary bevel first, on a coarse stone.