agh This is driving me nuts! (he's on about his health again

[wizer]

Sorry Sorry, move along if this subject bores you..

I'm looking for some advice actually. Prompted by Mark's painful thread.

Since the stomach op, things have been pretty terrible around here. Neither operation has fixed their respective issues and my health seems to be on a gradual decline with the odd 'good week'. What that means is I can struggle through a day doing 'stuff', be that in the workshop, shopping, visiting relatives, etc After any activity like this I just feel shocking. But the truth is that if I really push myself, I can get through it. Lately work has started getting heavy with me and so has the state. Neither want me to be 'on the sick', that makes three of us! I've got 'interviews' with both soon and I'm really not looking forward to it.

What I want to know is what you would do in this situation. Maybe I need perspective. Maybe my friends and relatives are being kind when they tell me I am ok 'to be ill'? If you had constant pain in your back and it constantly felt like it might 'go' or 'pop out' on you at any moment. If you felt 'delicate' constantly or if the pain in the morning was at least three times worse in the late afternoon. Would you be able to work? I am an IT Consultant. It requires sitting in a chair most of the day, but I do have plenty of opportunity to move around if needed. My employers have and are doing their best to accommodate me. They are even prepared to let me do reduced hours if\when I come back. But if I can't get through a 'normal' day without being in such pain, should I go back to work feeling like this? What is acceptable to 'put up with' for a human being?

The absolute last thing I want to do is claim benefits. I want my workshop with all my tools, I want to attend woodworking shows and bashes, I want to take my little girl to the park at the weekend, I want to do DIY on my house, I want to own a house. All this will disappear the moment I give up and go on benefits. I'll be forever watching my back (excuse the pun). People will always look at me with suspicion, "is he a cheat?". I'll have to give up most, if not all of the workshop. Not just because we'll be down sizing, but because how can a man who's claiming benefit, work on a lathe? Or work any machinery?

I'm going along, trying to pretend this ain't happening. But it is. This doesn't just impact me, but my wife and daughter are coming along for the ride and the feeling of guilt is incredible.

So, honestly, what would you do? I'm not looking for sympathy, you've all been very kind in the past in that respect. I just need some perspective. Should I 'put up with it'?

 

[Mattty]

Thats a tough one Tom.

I feel that you have to have 100% confidence in your self and to trust your own judgment on this. No one else can experience your physical pain and thus it's difficult to truly judge the extent of it.

If i where you i think i would probably be driving myself to do everything possible to avoid the state benefit system, as it is a circle of decline that i perceive hard to step out of. That said, if that turns out to be the reality you must face then you should and are entitled to every benefit you can claim and should do so.
If you do end up 'claiming' then there is nothing wrong with still enjoying your hobby and you don't need to justify an hour on the lathe to anyone (with the possible exception of your gp who will be signing your incapacity forms?).
Moving forward maybe try and put in place a series of weekly goals and targets to try and achieve with work. If you can get through it then raise the bar. If you can't then maybe lower the bar or look at the realistic alternatives.
Trust your self and good luck mate.

 

[matt]

What exactly is stopping you putting in some time at work? If you're feeling shocking after doing leisure stuff what's the difference to feeling shocking have done a days work? I suspect, like most of us, it comes down to motivation? Feeling shocking after spending some time at the lathe is a small price to pay versus work making you feel shocking - subtle difference, or not?

I think you've answered your own question. If work force your hand you'll go back because it's the lesser of all the evils. Until then it suits you better to stay off work, although the passage of time is eroding feeling too as it takes its toll on your family. I think you're reaching a fork in the road so to speak. Deep down I suspect you know what you're going to do and talk just delays the inevitable?

Bottom line - in hard practical terms... Is work going to make it worse? If not, then go back and see how you get on.

On another practical level... you say you're an IT Consultant. What kind? As in can you work from home some or all of the time? Or are you in helpdesk/support role so have to be on site?

I could tell you tales of at least three people close to me who have fought the (health) odds to maintain a "normal" life, complete with work etc, whilst dealing with debilitating illnesses, however, I think this is largely immaterial - they were driven by the things that were important to them. Only you can really work out what things are really important to both you and your family.

I hope some of that has been useful.

 

[newt]

Tom have you been told the long term prognosis for your back and gut, as any decisions on your part, should I would have thought, taken this into account.

 

[big soft moose]

What exactly is stopping you putting in some time at work? If you're feeling shocking after doing leisure stuff what's the difference to feeling shocking have done a days work? I suspect, like most of us, it comes down to motivation? Feeling shocking after spending some time at the lathe is a small price to pay versus work making you feel shocking - subtle difference, or not?

I think you've answered your own question. If work force your hand you'll go back because it's the lesser of all the evils. Until then it suits you better to stay off work, although the passage of time is eroding feeling too as it takes its toll on your family. I think you're reaching a fork in the road so to speak. Deep down I suspect you know what you're going to do and talk just delays the inevitable?

Bottom line - in hard practical terms... Is work going to make it worse? If not, then go back and see how you get on.

On another practical level... you say you're an IT Consultant. What kind? As in can you work from home some or all of the time? Or are you in helpdesk/support role so have to be on site?

I could tell you tales of at least three people close to me who have fought the (health) odds to maintain a "normal" life, complete with work etc, whilst dealing with debilitating illnesses, however, I think this is largely immaterial - they were driven by the things that were important to them. Only you can really work out what things are really important to both you and your family.

I hope some of that has been useful.

^ what he said ^

like the man said you've answered your own question and so long as you can tolerate the pain, if all the things you say you want matter to you then you hasve no option but to carry on with the work.

I can certainly see that if you go back to work you will be in awful pain while sitting arround at work , but it doesnt sound like the work is causing the pain, so if you quit and go on benefits you will just be sitting arround in awful pain at home so the bottom line is would you rather be in horendous pain and relatively well off, or in horendous pain and skint, QED

 

[wizer]

That's the problem Pete. It just goes on and on and for neither condition do I have any idea what's wrong with me. I went back to the back consultant, he's retired! But his replacement looked me over, checked all my scans and told me that, going forward, there was nothing that could be done surgically. But he did say that the area of pain that I was pointing to (either side of the base of my spine) is not a spinal problem (obvious really?). So he suggested that there could be the beginnings of Rheumatoid Arthritis. He sent me for scans, which I've now had and referred me to Rhumatology. This was three weeks ago and nothing's happened yet. When I phone I either can't get any answers or I just get told to wait.

The gut problem is the same. When I was discharged I was still in as much pain as I went in with, but they were waiting for results of the biopsies taken from the piece of bowel they removed. That took 5 weeks. When I went back they told me that they didn't find anything 'bad', i'e cancer. But that they could no longer help me and they suspected it could be crohn's. That was a different dept, so I was re-referred. After waiting 6 weeks, I've got the colonoscopy on Friday. The results of that will be 4-6 weeks after.

Interestingly, if you research Crohn's and Sacroiliitis, there is a connection.

It's just a massive waiting game and I can't tell my employers or the state exactly what's happening to me. I'm trying my own diets and physio plans because I get no answers from the NHS.

Matt, I understand what you are saying. Basically grit your teeth and bare it for the sake of your family's quality of life. I do understand that and most days I fully expect to return to work. But then sometimes I just feel like I shouldn't have to go through that. Because my own quality of life will be diminished. I know that after work and weekend, all I'll want to do is be horizontal, as that's the only source of pain relief for me.

The biggest problem with trying to go back to work is that my contract restricts me from then going sick again. Or at least it means I will instantly lose all pay. So what ever happens I will try to go back to work. But that decision will then be the make or break. If I decide to go back and then realise it's too much, I will fall heavily. The current method give me time to organise my life and be prepared for the worse.

I do understand that once you get on the benefit train, it's non-stop to misery. I'm not unaware of that at all.

It's not as black and white as it seems.

 

[big soft moose]

The biggest problem with trying to go back to work is that my contract restricts me from then going sick again. Or at least it means I will instantly lose all pay. So what ever happens I will try to go back to work. But that decision will then be the make or break. If I decide to go back and then realise it's too much, I will fall heavily. .

strikes me then that you need a two pronged approach

prong one is to do whatever you can to limit the effects of a potential fall, how much debt can you pay off, can you down size, could you sell the BRM and buy something more modest, do you have pension funds or other assests you could cash in to pay your debt, could swimbo go back to work and you become a house husband etc... it sounds like you have prong one pretty much in hand

but prong two is to see if you can get this clause in your contract changed (it sounds like it may contravene EU law anyway) - if your employers want to keep you (which presumably they do if they have invested trainiung etc in you) then maybe they'd be amenable to a trial return to work without giving up the right to go back on the sick if it doesnt work out, and also like matt said could you do somework from home or have a sliding scale of hours etc

 

[wizer]

Well the downsizing thing is in action at the moment. I've just gone through phase one of the workshop clear-out and phase two will see all the wood go. It's hard letting go of machinery as it never goes for anything like what you pay for it and if we do end up with not a lot of income then I'll never get machines of that calibre again. But if I end up on benefits, it will all have to go, no matter what. I'm prepared to downsize if I have to. We put our house on the market today and are looking for a much smaller house. But again, if I end up on benefits I'm really not sure how it works in terms of owning your own house. My wife already works part time and, although reluctant, is prepared to return to work full time. That would mean me looking after our daughter for most of the week and that's basically a full days work. So you hit a brick wall with that idea.

I'm willing to work with my employers to get me back. Working from home just isn't an option, I've been asking for years. There might be a position coming up where it could be possible. But they are reluctant to give me that job until I can give them firm answers as to my recovery.

Getting some answers from the NHS would help tremendously and you would think that instead of 'getting heavy' about benefits, they would treat my case(s) with urgency. Surely the cost of my benefits over the next 60odd years (if I'm lucky) is much more expensive than just getting me fixed and back to work. That really gets to me the most about 'the system'. Not knowing what is wrong with me and whether it will ever be fixed is the problem here. Then I could make decisions.

 

[Lons]

Wiser

Really sorry to hear about your troubles man, back pain in particular can be very debilitating and as it's not obvious, people are liable to think you're exagerating.

You can get through it but it will take a huge willpower to motivate you as well as a determined effort to move around at every possibility. I found that doing nothing very quickly affected both mind and body.

My experience wasn't as bad but resulted after 12 months of serious pain at work (a branch manager so desk and car bound), in a laminectomy (I think - memory is getting worse), where they fused 3 discs together. That was 23 years ago and I've never been pain free but found it possible to control with a little effort.

You mention Chrons:- It often is not diagnosed as they don't think to look but easy to diagnose when they do. It can be controlled with drugs and steroids but it can also be very nasty and is more common than realised. You've got to pay for lifetime drugs though, unlike diabetes for example!

My son was diagnosed 4 years ago at 24 but is one of the lucky one so far and has been completely treatment free for 2 years.

One point - do you smoke? - a very significant contributor to Chrons !

Hang in there and be positive

Bob

 

[big soft moose]

But again, if I end up on benefits I'm really not sure how it works in terms of owning your own house. .

owning your own house is probably a more secure position if you wind up on bennies than renting - for a start you probably wont be on benefits for ever and if you downsized and paid off as much mortgage as possible you could probably manage the remainder with your missus working as much as possible (especially if you renegotiated to interest only until you get back on your feet e.g as your daughter grows up and goes to school your missus would be able to work longer hours)

wheras if you are renting and lose your job , your landlord could well decide he doesnt want dhs tennants and just give you notice

and finally

and be positive

what he said - even if the worst happens and you do lose your job it neednt be the end of the world - thousands of people in the uk are on benefits and for most of them its not an inevitable decent into the underclass winding up living between a brothel and a crack den... while there is no doubt that your lifestyle would have to change it doesnt have to be that drastic and it doesnt have to be for ever.

 

[big soft moose]

Well the downsizing thing is in action at the moment. I've just gone through phase one of the workshop clear-out ...

without wanting to sound like a nagging wife , didnt you just buy a dirty great scms

to point out the blindingly obvious the point of a downsize is supposed to be to generate money to clear your debts and provide a cushion if the worst happens, not to reinvest it in big shiny toolage :lol:

 

[cutting42]

Hi Tom

I am fortunate to not have any experience of long term pain/conditions so cannot offer any direct personal suggestions. However my company has dealt with this situation in the past. Where the NHS was not helping in a timely manner (as with you) my company was interested in investing in the future of our employees by paying for private treatment to diagnose and get access to therapies not available on the NHS.

I would use the meeting scheduled with your company to make a proposal asking for their financial support for some private diagnosis which should be much quicker than continuing to wait for the NHS. You should get a clear answer in short order. This will address their current concerns of not knowing which I am sure you can sympathise with.

I don't know what the costs of a private diagnosis would be but I am sure it would be more palatible to your company than continuing paying you not knowing for how long before you return to work. This will of course depend upon the general attitude of your company faced with this. If it values its employees you should stand a good chance. You mention downsizing your workshop, another suggestion you could make is that you are willing to invest in this diagnosis as well to reach a conclusion. Now it is not for me to comment on your means or how you spend it but it may help convince your company to help you out here.

I hope this is of interest and I hope you get better soon.

 

[head clansman]

hi tom

I think I disgust this previously with you about my mum in laws back get a private doctor opinion its well worth the money , we did for her when she fractured her spine in three places nhs wrote her off saying sorry my dear it's just fair wear and tear for your age 82 , when she seen the private doctor he immediately pointed out the three break in her spine from the xrays done by the (NHS) who haad totally overlooked them, at least if he will tell you what is wrong with you, then get him to move you up the nhs list. hc

 

[Lons]

Hi Tom

I am fortunate to not have any experience of long term pain/conditions so cannot offer any direct personal suggestions. However my company has dealt with this situation in the past. Where the NHS was not helping in a timely manner (as with you) my company was interested in investing in the future of our employees by paying for private treatment to diagnose and get access to therapies not available on the NHS.

I would use the meeting scheduled with your company to make a proposal asking for their financial support for some private diagnosis which should be much quicker than continuing to wait for the NHS. You should get a clear answer in short order. This will address their current concerns of not knowing which I am sure you can sympathise with.

I don't know what the costs of a private diagnosis would be but I am sure it would be more palatible to your company than continuing paying you not knowing for how long before you return to work. This will of course depend upon the general attitude of your company faced with this. If it values its employees you should stand a good chance. You mention downsizing your workshop, another suggestion you could make is that you are willing to invest in this diagnosis as well to reach a conclusion. Now it is not for me to comment on your means or how you spend it but it may help convince your company to help you out here.

I hope this is of interest and I hope you get better soon.

Sound advice Wiser if you can present a good case to your employer.

You'll get no change out of the NHS who must grind on at their own pace. they have no interest in costs to the benefit system or your employer - not in their budget.
Believe me I know - 4 of my immediate family work for them! As well as 1 retired heart consultant!

It's amazing how quickly the NHS consultants can respond when they are being paid privately.

I was lucky to be in BUPA but was quoted std NHS treatment at approx 12 months. Privately I saw the same consultant within 2 days, oprerated within 4 days and back at work within 3 weeks! (I was actually never off sick 'cause I had a 'phone which never stopped ringing! :lol: )

 

[matt]

At the risk of sounding patronising/pointing out the obvious but I'll say it anyway... On the subject of selling your current house and looking for somewhere smaller... Have you totalled the cost of this, including stamp duty? Are you absolutely sure you would not be better off slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage?

With regard to moving things along on the NHS... Find out the name of the consultant that you have been referred to. Then get the number for his/her office. Then speak to them nicely. NHS staff get so much flack that they respond really well to someone with a nice attitude with reasonable expectations, expressed firmly. Always ask how long you should leave it to contact them again for an update. It's amazing how effective this is. (And yes, I am harping on about hearts & minds again...).

 

[big soft moose]

At the risk of sounding patronising/pointing out the obvious but I'll say it anyway... On the subject of selling your current house and looking for somewhere smaller... Have you totalled the cost of this, including stamp duty? Are you absolutely sure you would not be better off slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage?

good point , tho as of todays budget the stamp duty may have gone away as far as tom is concerned, as the threshold just got doubled.

 

[wizer]

Lons, I've never smoked and haven't drunk for 4yrs

Pete, the new saw was a weakness I find hard to control. i.e Bargains. It was £390. It retails for £520. The old saw is for sale and I'm hoping to get £300 for it, so I'm £90 down. But then I've sold four routers, a philly plane, a sander, a set of panel raising bits, your chisels etc, etc. I'm continuing to get rid of stuff I really don't need. Until I decide to get rid of the machinery, the downsizing is just to get rid of stuff I don't need and get stuff that will make life easier in some way. The new saw will eventually gain me space.

I know deep down that a big part of the solution is to stop woodworking. Or at least, to concentrate on a very small area of woodworking. Just doing turning is one viable option, but I got into woodworking to make furniture. That's what I want to do. Turning was just a bit of fun. More and more I keep thinking to myself I should give up and sell it all off. But that leaves me with nothing. As time goes on it's looking like something I have to do. Accepting this, in fact any of this, it really very hard.

Cutting\Martin: Yes I see your point. I did see a private consultant about three years ago. It was him who suggested the fusion operation and suggested a surgeon on the NHS. Luckily he waived his fee which astonished me! However, that ended up being a bad move. The surgeon he recommended was a first class ****, of the highest order! He wouldn't even look at me in the eye when I went to see him and wasn't interested in hearing what i had to say. He told me he wouldn't operate on me until he'd done a test called a discogram. This was the most painful experience of my life (and that's saying something). It involved inserting a needle all the way into the joints of the spine and injecting fluid, for me to tell them if it hurt. After the first joint I had to ask them to stop. It was unbearable. They left me on a wheel chair in a busy out patients waiting room in a whimpering mess. That whole incident nearly pushed me over the edge and was a really low point.

That said I can see that going back to a private consultant could be an option. It's just finding a good one and then hoping his advice will be worth the money. Otherwise I'll be chucking money away and left with naff all. That's a massive risk in my eyes, but one I will consider. I seriously doubt my employers will be interested in paying for this. But I will ask.

 

[wizer]

Matt you make a good point about the house downsizing thing. My wife is hell bent on it but I'm not so sure. The idea is not to reduce the repayments (as I'm not sure we will really), but to lower the running costs and release some funds. We're talking about selling a 300k house and buying something 185-200k Hopefully the money released will pay off some of the larger debts and give us a bit to do some initial decorating, etc in the new place. Whilst I'm quite good with finances, mortgages confuse the hell out of me and I'm really not sure if this make sense or not. What do you mean when you say slicing off a similar sum from your existing mortgage? Do you mean remortgage for more, releasing funds to pay off the debts? That doesn't seem feasible to me. Plus I'm not sure we could borrow any more in our current situation.

I'm always polite to the NHS staff, however much it drives me bonkers. The trick is actually speaking to someone in the first place!

 

[Daven]

Tom, have you tried pain management clinics? As you know my mother passed away last week, but she had pain in her arm for the past 3 or 4 years so I know how tiring it can be when it is constant.

She finally had a pain block injection which helped (4 weeks before she died bless her), but before that I noticed her general mood would affect the pain a few hours later so I truly believe the state of mind can help. May be worth looking at the British Pain Society website, if you haven't already!

Dave

 

[LarryS.]

wizer, best wishes to you mate.

Whatever happens with timescales for diagnosis, jobs, house moves e.t.c. I think that a bloke (and the ladies) need some sort of hobby or distraction from the daily grind of life. If full on furniture making is too costly then why not sell off all the kit and downgrade to practicing learning skills on smaller items ? I made a jewellery box which cost less than a fiver in wood, only needed in theory a tenon saw, chisel, dovetail marker - when doing this you'd be learning and practicing new things which then when you health recovers will only make the full furniture making easier and better quality.

As for your job, perhaps suggest a phased return ? then you could take it a step at a time, employer see's your willing

again, good luck.