Affordable vs Pride

[homeinthecity]

Some great advice above.... @frankendoodle65 raised a great point regarding showing the customer the quality of your doors etc. Next time you are making shakers for instance, run a couple of extra lengths for stiles / rails and make up a couple of small doors. One unfinished to show the medite mr mdf or whatever you use and the second door sprayed up.

Ive bought in drawer boxes before, was great! I couldn't have made them for the cost of the box kits

Great advice - quality differences can be intangible and hard to understand for many. Showing the difference with a demonstration helps immensely.

I'd recommend three options - essentially a gold, silver and bronze. I suspect most people will end up taking the middle or top-quality options, but it allows a structured conversation around budget and makes quoting easier, so you can weed out those who won't buy more quickly.

 

[homeinthecity]

One other suggestion I'd think about the perception of your brand and whether it speaks to the quality you provide. You may be able to manage the front end pipeline of jobs to put off those on a lower budget and increase your 'win rate'.

In my experience a polished website, professional domain name, emails with a signature and shiny PDF quotes go a long way to setting the expectation of quality early. They don't cost a lot, but people often don't make the effort.

You can also template material to add to your quotes that educate the customer as to what you do, your story and what makes if different, it's then easy to just add a coversheet and send it out. You'll stand out against those bodging it, and the big faceless brands.

 

[COWS]

I found that listing all materials with costs right down to a box screws. An estimate on how many days to carry out a project with what I charged per hour. Options for painting and different grades of hardware etc. I was a bit unsure about showing a potential client on how much was going on materials and how much into my pocket. But being transparent increased my success rate. And I was upfront about markups too. A business needs a profit to survive.

 

[Doug71]

I do think built ins must be a very competitive area as anyone with a track saw is willing to have a go these days, you don't even need a workshop which saves a lot on overheads!

Sometimes I think it would be good to specialise in one area of joinery like for example built ins so you can get really efficient at pricing and making them but part of me enjoys doing a bit of everything plus it leaves your options open.

As said peoples view on prices can be very different. I gave one prospective customer a quote for a wardrobe and his response was "F@*#ing hell mate, don't you know we're in a recession!", I gave another a quote for some alcove units and they said "Yes, great go ahead, I presume that's each?" and it was for the pair

 

[johnnyb]

pricing also depends on if you have worked for them/ have a relationship.

 

[baldkev]

If its a large outlay in materials i ask for material costs when i start the job. I make that clear when i price.
I once fitted a kitchen for a nice lady, who it turned out didnt have any money. It took a couple of months for her to secure a loan because she had bad credit history. I was early 20s, was a nightmare at the time.... never again

 

[BrandonB]

Wow some really good advice and feedback with these replies!

It's reassuring to see I'm not alone when it comes to the business side of our industry.

To illustrate better my approach, I generally try to call the client when a website inquiry is made or reply to their email as soon as I can. I always ask for some photos of the space with some approx measurements. I will ask if they’re looking to have it painted or I can provide a pre-finished option or provide a primed only option which is the most affordable but they would need to finish it yourself.

I will give an expected cost based on their choice with options to add options such as shaker doors, beaded centre panels, electrician to extend sockets into cabinets rather than big cut outs, spray painted finish etc.

It’s all broken down from a baseline cost, anything added with add an additional cost. Once they’ve happy with the expected cost a date and time is arranged to measure up and discuss further options. I’d measure up, draw it up in sketch up and deliver them a detailed quote with a render of the install (obviously covered with my logo) and brief description – without the measurements. Once they’ve accepted the quote, a render with measurements is delivered, it’s double checked, a second visit is offered to walk through the layout/measurements ensure they’re happy and a deposit is made. The client has to be happy before any money is taken. I think communication through-out the process is so essential.

This is why you pay for the service and why you charge what you charge. The time and care involved through-out.

I can definitely see why people try to re-invent the clients original idea into something heavily detailed like beaded frames, beaded shaker doors, spray painted, oak veneer internals and it’s because it looks great on their Instagram/portfolio. It sells their business. it’s impressive but the client doesn’t want their boiler cupboard to be that expensive ahaha.

I don’t think I could bring myself to order everything in and go and fit it without making a single item. You might as well fit kitchens if that’s what you’re happy to do. I can’t bring myself to do that, perhaps it’s being stubborn and too much pride.

I rebranded at the start of the year to specialize in fitted furniture after advertising as a carpentry company for the past 5/6 years. my new website/branding has attracted more visitors and inquiries. I rebranded to attract the right type of clients and it has worked but it’s very hit and miss with replies and quotes. It’s true, sometimes you can price an install to one client and their over the moon and asking when you can you start. Other clients are asking ‘ow much mate? what about cash prices?

 

[BrandonB]

I would be interested to find out what other people would charge for certain installs. You know there’s going to be someone out there which will make everything on the client’s driveway, using DIY store material and charge the same as you.

That’s life though, it’d be interesting to see the difference between quotes because the material definitely isn’t getting any cheaper!

 

[Joshjosh]

I've only been self employed for 3 years. Being on domestic sites labouring before that meant I knew that I didn't want to go down that route. I'd love to build freestanding furniture but need to pay the bills so that left me with mainly fitted furniture work.

I noticed, especially on Instagram, allot of people starting new businesses at a similar time to me, doing similar jobs.

I'm self taught and definitely still learning so didn't want to broaden what I do too much before putting in the hours to master what I'm currently doing. I figured I'd try and get some handmade kitchen jobs as I thought there's less competition (from the one man band guys like me)

I put the word out to an interior designer I'd done work for in the past and a friend looking for a kitchen, that in order to create a portfolio of jobs I was offering kitchens with 1/2 price labour costs.
I did 3 kitchens plus mine that year, took a financial hit, but have been booked up at least 6 months ever since.

I have noticed fewer inquiries since focusing most of my effort on the kitchens, but I usually get 30-50% of enquired work and one kitchen usually provides 2-3 months of work.

 

[Samkilby]

With regards ball parking and not wasting your time on quotes that go nowhere, I believe some fitted furniture pros have a broad rule of thumb pricing to discuss early on (likely before even seeing the space)
For example - £1500 per linear metre of installed wardrobe with mdf shaker doors, add x if it’s sprayed, add x per drawer etc.
you could put together a heavily caveatted standard email that explains this is a guide price, and many things can affect the pricing, for example access onsite, non standard shape walls, specialist fixtures and fittings (eg sliding doors, pull down hanging rails, pocket doors etc) high ceilings etc.
you could also insert pictures of previous jobs against these figures, showing that x might get you something like this etc.
would probably sort the wheat from the chaff, and potentially save a lot of wasted time (and therefore money) during the quoting process, as you wouldn’t have to do a design or work out sheets until someone has a fair understanding of what they might be on the hook for. Similarly if you work out your standard pricing from previous jobs, I’m sure you will find that you can offer figures like the above that would cover you and make profit based against the above parameters, and make some notes on the jobs that either ended up costing you more, or took more time than expected and why this was, then either add these problems to the list of exceptions, or when asked to come and quote be on the lookout for them.
You might also consider quoting without certain aesthetic hardware (such as handles) as with the small amount of experience I have clients might take forever to decide on them, or choose something that costs £50 per handle.. which might make you seem expensive, and again caveat that they are to provide them on the first day of install.

Might be a good idea, I haven’t quoted a great deal of fitted furniture but I have in other industries and the amount of times I have gotten to the end of a site visit and the client has said something like “I would like a ballpark but of course that couldn’t cost more than 10 grand” when what we have just discussed for several hours would cost them 10 times more !

 

[johnnyb]

I seem to suffer from "work of art" syndrome above £2500. it's a real problem for me tbh. so what starts as making a door becomes you need to source and fit me from the anvil knobs. all fine if you make it absolutely clear whose paying. same with finish. I tell them osmo is rubbish everyone then thinks about it and has osmo uv! one even referenced how poor osmo was in a test then still choose it.

 

[Ollie78]

I find myself with this dilema often.
In the end you cannot cripple yourself to get the work.
If they don't like it tell them to go to IKEA.
I suspect you could have some pre made components cut in bulk etc. Buy plywood by the full pallet and buy things like hardware in bulk.
There is only so much you can streamline.

The point of a bespoke installation is that it is designed to fit a space, meet the clients criteria for design, function and finishing.
This is where the costs lie and so it is tricky to standardise too many parts.

Ollie

 

[Spectric]

I do think built ins must be a very competitive area as anyone with a track saw is willing to have a go these days, you don't even need a workshop which saves a lot on overheads!

When you get a large company like Sharps advertising on national Tv for the complete service for storage solutions then you have some serious competition and you have to ask yourself if you can compete.

I suspect you could have some pre made components cut in bulk etc. Buy plywood by the full pallet and buy things like hardware in bulk.
There is only so much you can streamline.

If you are offering a bespoke service then there might not be much that you can pre make but if you have the space then buying materials in bulk must be a saving, again though if you are using laminated board then sods law will say that whatever you have in stock the customer will want something different.

 

[Ollie78]

When you get a large company like Sharps advertising on national Tv for the complete service for storage solutions then you have some serious competition and you have to ask yourself if you can compete.



If you are offering a bespoke service then there might not be much that you can pre make but if you have the space then buying materials in bulk must be a saving, again though if you are using laminated board then sods law will say that whatever you have in stock the customer will want something different.

I know someone who worked for Sharps for a while. They were pricing £1500 plus vat a linear meter about 7 years ago so who knows what it is now. Garbage quality as well.

Ollie

 

[ian33a]

When I was quoting for work, at the start, my success rate in winning the quote was pretty low. Over a short period of time I realised that is was as much about selling of a perception as it was about actually selling an item. What started out with a 25% conversion rate got to about 75% by the time we retired five years later. While it's nice to be able to make things that people want, there's no point if you cannot get them to buy it from you in the first place - selling is as vital as making.

So much of the sales process is convincing the customer to like you and to trust you. You need to be professional, eloquent, respectful, interested in the customer (or at least appear to be), to properly listen and to demonstrate that you know what you are doing, that you will deliver what you promise to deliver and, if you fall short of an agreed expectation, you put things right, and quickly.

You may need to set your prices attractively at the start but, gain some traction in the market, and you can start to charge what you like (within reason) because people will want to spend their money with you. We were competitive at the start and charging top rates by the end and huge in backlog - all profits nicely squirelled away in pension funds.

Trying to under cut everybody else is a mugs game and it almost always ends in disapointment. Gradually chasing toward a top price is far more satisfying and financially rewarding.

 

[Herr Nilsson]

@BrandonB
What sort of joinery do you do? If you’re not employing loose-tenon joinery, then a Domino DF500, for example, could speed up box construction?
Or maybe you could use pocket holes , - well at least for the stuff you can’t see!

What I’m getting at is perhaps you could speed up your work flow with an investment in tooling or a modification in your approach to construction?

..Don’t tell me - you’re a Festool Fanboy already?

 

[Doug71]

One of my customers asked me to fit some wardrobes in a couple of bedrooms, the wardrobes had been supplied by some expensive bespoke firm who wanted £3k on top of the price of the wardrobes for fitting, he got them to do supply only and I fitted them for a lot less. He told me how there would be no problems fitting them as they were bespoke and made to fit his rooms exactly. He was a bit miffed when I pointed out to him that all the carcasses were either 1200mm or 600mm wide and there was just a couple of large infills to make up the gaps left at the ends. The worst thing about them were the holes inside of the carcasses, there were 32mm centred holes top to bottom for shelves plus loads of holes for different hinge placement and loads of holes for different height hanging rails. Nothing bespoke about them at all, he could have just bought some Pax wardrobes from Ikea and got me to make some MDF doors (that's all theirs were made of) and saved a few thousand!

What I'm getting at is I think generally the bigger a company becomes the less bespoke it tends to be. A small one or two man business can make anything but once you have a few employees you have to standardise things then you end up having different "ranges" and suddenly it's not really bespoke at all.

 

[Spectric]

I know someone who worked for Sharps for a while. They were pricing £1500 plus vat a linear meter

That is the problem, a good sales pitch and marketing will get customers but we tend to think that offering a good job wins the day. This might have been the case in the past but now it is all image and cost where people accept perceived quality, just look at Wren kitchens which is again all about image.

 

[johnnyb]

whilst I agree about employees requiring a pattern I think many small outfits could benefit from standardisation. ie not suggesting anything is on the table. just saying we make 2 or 3 basic layouts. choose one. making something is only half the battle...making something profitable is the other aim.

 

[BrandonB]

@BrandonB
What sort of joinery do you do? If you’re not employing loose-tenon joinery, then a Domino DF500, for example, could speed up box construction?
Or maybe you could use pocket holes , - well at least for the stuff you can’t see!

What I’m getting at is perhaps you could speed up your work flow with an investment in tooling or a modification in your approach to construction?

..Don’t tell me - you’re a Festool Fanboy already?

I have indeed contracted the festool parasite.
I own the domino DF500 and do use it for a majority of my builds, it definitely speeds things up! But when you have say 5/6 wardrobe doors to make up, glue up, wait for the glue to set, work on them, finish them and you're just one guy. It still takes awhile, the festool gear just gives you something to look at whilst doing it ahaha.

That is the problem, a good sales pitch and marketing will get customers but we tend to think that offering a good job wins the day. This might have been the case in the past but now it is all image and cost where people accept perceived quality, just look at Wren kitchens which is again all about image.

It's definitely this. If you can convince people well enough, you can sell them anything. The trouble is people have the option of finance with Wren, that is a big part of why they sell so much. No large upfront costs, it's all marked up to the eyeballs in profit and stuck on a pay later scheme. Wren are laughing to the bank because they're able to provide to the clients who wouldn't be able to buy something outright, or prehaps have sat on the fence about a new kitchen for years and finally have the option to afford one. The product they sell is absolute tosh, and often arrives damaged and needs to be replaced on deliverly, but they're still making a profit!

Marketing is a big play. If you look the part on the socials and seem to be doing well, everyone wants a part of it.