Affordable vs Pride

[BrandonB]

Hi all,
I thought I would make this thread in hope someone can shed some light on a current dilemna I seem to be facing which is trying to make my process/installs more affordable for the clients whilst also making a profit. Due to rising costs and everything generally going up in all round, people having less and less money to spend on fitted furniture (i.e fitted wardrobes, bookcases, alcove units etc). I am struggling recently to have quotes accepted by clients when I am being very reasonable.
I typically make every component of my installs from the shaker style doors to the carcasses and the drawer boxes. I offer a primed or pre-finished option for every install, pre-finished would be a spray painted finish applied to the entire install if the client has the budget. The second option is to use pre-finished sheet material such as melamine faced MDF, real wood veneered MDF, valchromat etc in a way to still provide a pre-finished install without the cost of spraying everything. The last option is primed, this is the most affordable option if the client wants to keep costs down. Even so, I am still finding clients not getting back to me or quotes aren't accepted.

More recently I am finding my quotes aren't being accepted which is leaving me to scratch my head and wonder what is causing this. The only thing I can think of is to reduce the amount of labour on installs. I can do this by ordering in prefinished components such as doors/drawer boxes. This would lower the amount of time per install and would reduce labour costs.

I think this is the only option I have, as client's don't want to pay for your time to make everything.
How many other people do a similar thing and do you feel like it's cheating or just a smarter business move?

 

[eribaMotters]

I do not envy you your position and admire the way you are looking at ways to go forward. Folk are happy to pay £100+ an hour to have the car serviced but baulk at the hourly rate you charge for your skilled work.
When I did bespoke work I always started a visit by stating if you could buy what you want ready made then do so as I could not make it for that price. Through experience I could also give a ball park figure on a job and asked if this fell within expectations or not. If it did I would spend time on an accurate estimate. If it did not I wished them luck and saved both of us some time.

Colin

 

[baldkev]

Very similar to Colin above, give them a ballpark and see if they flinch.

The real question is, how much work do you have?
Often, making cuts to cheapen a service results in a lesser quality job / experience. Im not saying you wouldn't do a decent job, just saying that if you loose any quality you may well loose some customers. It sure is a tricky time fir some.
Around here ( south devon ) there arent enough tradesmen to cope with demand, so for the time being, we are all stacked out. I would hope brizzle is busy as it became a trendy / hip city with a fair bit of money coming in from the london bunch......

One important point is to make sure you are clear that you are offering a custom service, using high quality materials and processes ( spraying etc ) because a comparative quote from a carpenter using brown mdf and a paint roller / brush isnt going to be the same product, regardless of their accuracy.

I keep being told not to undervalue myself.... im still trying to learn that one.

 

[BrandonB]

It's becoming more and more competitive here.

There seems to be a new carpentry business springing up every month offering similar looking products, but on closer inspection it isn't the same job at all. They're slightly different ways of doing things which I prefer not to do as I feel there's a better option which requires a little more time and thought to achieve.
I understand people take shortcuts to win quotes and become competitive with the market. I can't bring myself to start cutting corners and quality such as adding strips of thin MDF to a sheet of 12mm/18mm and calling it a shaker style door. It's prone to bowing, looks terrible when the door is open and removes any skill threshold from the job. Using DIY quality MDF for their installs and charging the same if not slightly less than using the higher quality material.

I don't want to begin using pre-made components as you start having problems such as damaged when shipped, long turn around times and if there's a difference between the finishes when unwrapped etc.

But I guess you won't know until you try and gain the experience.

 

[rogxwhit]

It's always tricky to achieve a balance. Do you have a web presence? With marketing material you can write a novel about your ethos and quality standards, but the presentation itself has to reflect those too. Excellent photos, concise but informative text, good information architecture ...

Word of mouth may be the best marketing tool ever, but can only arise by chance ...

Prospective clients are generally naive about the ins & outs. Why is a bespoke window twice the price of one from the builders' merchant? But they tend to cotton on once you explain it. Why is a made to order dining chair £950 when you can get one for £25 in Ikea?

For the same product and price, one person might say 'You're very reasonable' and another person 'You're expensive'!

My first counsel is to work according to your own standards - that way you maintain integrity and self respect. Keeping busy enough to put food on the table is another matter.

 

[frankendoodle65]

As rogxwhit says, reasonable to one customer is expensive to another, you can't really win!
It helps to know what your "competition" are charging - maybe your quotes aren't sticking because they've had a cheaper quote elsewhere.
I did a huge wardrobe for a customer last year - I was the third person to quote on it. The first quoted over £9k, the second guy about £6k and I about £5k. Apparently the other two guys had their own ideas about the job, I didn't get it because I was the cheapest but because I actually listened and drew up what the customer wanted, I was cheapest because what they wanted was much simpler than what the others guys were proposing!

They then recommended me to someone else saying my prices were very reasonable, but that person heard "reasonable" and thought "cheap"! I believe they ended up getting some second hand IKEA units and cobbling them together to do the job, they couldn't understand that custom made cabinets would cost them more than going to a shop.


Anyway my point is that every customer has a different idea of a reasonable price, and it pays to have an idea of what others are charging. Don't be that guy charging more because you're making what you think is best instead of what the customer actually wants. If you're charging more because you're the only guy making real shaker style doors, bring along some examples on a quote so the customer sees the benefit of making them properly.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is worth checking when quotes are wildly different that you are quoting for exactly the same job.. Years ago my b.i.l. quoted for a job for one of my cousins and when he heard what the other quotes were wondered why they were so much lower than his. He asked to look at the other quotes and found that unknown to my cousin his wife had altered the specs. - they were quoting for very different jobs.

 

[BucksDad]

Have you gathered any feedback on why quotes not being accepted? Are they going with someone else quoting cheaper or are they not doing it all or going for a much cheaper option with IKEA etc.

 

[Spectric]

You are probably delivering too much quality, people only see pound signs and are not quality aware which means that some cowboy who can throw something in that looks ok but at a much lower cost gets the job.

 

[MikeK]

As rogxwhit says, reasonable to one customer is expensive to another, you can't really win!
It helps to know what your "competition" are charging - maybe your quotes aren't sticking because they've had a cheaper quote elsewhere.
I did a huge wardrobe for a customer last year - I was the third person to quote on it. The first quoted over £9k, the second guy about £6k and I about £5k. Apparently the other two guys had their own ideas about the job, I didn't get it because I was the cheapest but because I actually listened and drew up what the customer wanted, I was cheapest because what they wanted was much simpler than what the others guys were proposing!

My experience as a customer for a large job wasn't related to woodworking, but landscaping...specifically with the bold section of your statement. When I bought my house, the garden was a neglected construction zone, complete with dump station for the concrete trucks and remnants of construction rubble throughout the area. The only green vegetation was weeds, and there was no clear boundary between my property and the farmer's field adjacent to me.

I developed a request for quote that included in basic terms what I wanted for the entire garden renovation, areas where I had no preference, and a timeline. Of the five or six landscaping firms I contacted, all but one made a site visit. Of these, only one actually paid attention to the items in my request and spent more than ten minutes on site. The rest provided wildly different quotes that ranged between €5K and €20K, but none included everything I wanted.

The company I chose was significantly more expensive than the others, but their quote demonstrated they understood the complexity of the job, included everything I wanted, offered alternate suggestions for garden layout and features, provided manufacturer's data sheets on the irrigation system and well pump (which the others omitted), and the all important work schedule breakdown (which the others omitted). Twelve years later, I am still pleased with my decision and have used the same firm twice for other garden work without bothering with a quote.

 

[Agent_zed]

I found it interesting looking at kitchens in Wren, B&Q and Magnet recently compared with when I looked 2 years ago. To my mind they were significantly worse looking now. The wood surfaces in particular look a lot cheaper/lower quality. I assume this is to keep the price point roughly the same for the customer.

 

[Jacob]

My reaction to pressure for lower prices has been to put them up, sometimes with amendments to quotations already made.
Sounds perverse but it's a slippery slope and underpricing can lead to cutting corners, whereas a good price gives you the leeway to give more attention to detail etc and improve on the job.
Ideally - in the end to be seen as expensive but well worth it.
PS if you find yourself having to quote competitively then go high and let some other cowboy make a pigs ear of it.

 

[frankendoodle65]

The company I chose was significantly more expensive than the others, but their quote demonstrated they understood the complexity of the job, included everything I wanted, offered alternate suggestions for garden layout and features, provided manufacturer's data sheets on the irrigation system and well pump (which the others omitted), and the all important work schedule breakdown (which the others omitted). Twelve years later, I am still pleased with my decision and have used the same firm twice for other garden work without bothering with a quote.

That's just it, often it's not about money but actually getting a tradesman who understands what you want and delivering that.

In my example the customer wanted a very simple wardrobe, all made from birch ply with flat panel sliding doors and simple holes for finger pulls. One row of drawers at the bottom and shelves/hanging rails inside. Dead simple, but the other quotes included shaker style doors, fancy mouldings and trim, elaborate unnecessary storage solutions (pull out tie racks and the like) - I can only think they were trying to force that on the customer as an excuse to charge more. I designed and delivered a simple birch ply wardrobe - exactly what the customer wanted and they paid the appropriate amount for it.

 

[Keith 66]

I spent most of my career in the boat trade, similarly afflicted by tightwads. Often people have big ideas & shallow pockets, Its pointless trying to undercut the opposition, all you do is win the race to the bottom & go skint quicker. Better to double your prices & then win the odd one who will tell everyone how wonderful it turned out & be smug about how much it cost them.
In the end i gave up trying & got a job as a D&T technician, poorly paid but I wasnt paying the heating bill & knew what was going to be in the bank every month!

 

[Doug71]

From speaking to other tradesmen I get the impression things are slowing down a bit around here.

There is nothing wrong with buying in things like ready made drawer boxes, if you source some decent ones it doesn't mean a drop in quality, somewhere that is set up for making just drawer boxes all day will no doubt be able to make them quicker and cheaper than you.

I know some lads who make some lovely cupboards etc but they don't actually make anything, everything is bought in cut to size and they just assemble it. I can't get my head around it but seems to be how it works these days.

 

[johnnyb]

you've entered an area where an economic bump in the road can stop people spending or make them choose the cheaper option. outsourcing is definitely not cheating.

anyway my story is I work for a lovely couple with a nice big house I did some repairs maybe 8 months ago. they had a quote for landscaping of 50grand they were slightly taken aback. they also were having a large circular 2 storey wooden extension replaced in accoya.

anyway they phone and I catch up. the landscape job they gave to a youngish lad who was 4/5 done but was now dragging his feet as he obviously undercooked it. the timber extension was mired in cost problems with only 50percent completed and the rest sitti(ng in his garage(since september).and this was a 6 man shop
my point is do what you do well. the birch ply wardrobe is interesting because I think that simple wardrobe should be more expensive as it's bespoke. the other ones are trying to force a pattern on these people. which is usually good for business(as a pattern can be properly costed by far the most difficult task) don't be the landscaper being tempted by maybe 2/3 of the price but getting bogged down. or the joiners not having sufficient knowledge of how materials affect quotes.

 

[HOJ]

things are slowing down a bit around here

Bonkers this end, looking at next year now for taking on new work, which isn't necessarily a good thing, however, I'm not going to get rich on it just sustainable, I hope!.

a current dilemna I seem to be facing which is trying to make my process/installs more affordable for the clients whilst also making a profit

I have said this in the past, and its arrogant I know, but, I always ask how much is in the budget, before I get too involved, you should know instinctively if its got potential, also, maybe open up your range of options:

(i.e fitted wardrobes, bookcases, alcove units etc)

Seems a bit narrow.

 

[johnnyb]

one other thing is to be clear where your activity lies. so if your a craftsmen/artist you may struggle at times. if your like dougs guys buying edged panels in then you need to be making a decent profit. artist or tradesmen? this will influence how you sell yourself.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I’m on the other side of this discussion in that I buy stuff rather than sell it.
We just had a large patio installed that required excavation and retaining walls. We got a couple of quotes and one was significantly less than the other and was someone we used before for a small job so jumped on that one. The work started and the job was progressing well when my wife asked them when they were going to start digging out the other half of the patio on the other side of the steps. That’s when we discovered my wife had failed to mention that part of the project…. The landscaper was of course devastated that there was a problem and we quickly agreed an additional cost for the other half which was still cheaper than the other quote, but only just.
The moral of this is that the customer isn’t always clear on what they want.
The end result of the excellent way the landscaper dealt with this has resulted in us putting another even larger project his way.

I’m just getting quotes in now for a complete bathroom refit, including insulating the floors and walls and a kitchen refit. I’m selfishly hoping that there is a slow down in the market so that I can at least get some builders interested in quoting.

 

[baldkev]

Some great advice above.... @frankendoodle65 raised a great point regarding showing the customer the quality of your doors etc. Next time you are making shakers for instance, run a couple of extra lengths for stiles / rails and make up a couple of small doors. One unfinished to show the medite mr mdf or whatever you use and the second door sprayed up.

Ive bought in drawer boxes before, was great! I couldn't have made them for the cost of the box kits