Advice to a 15 yo wanting a woodwork career

[pe2dave]

Child of a nephew: Keen as mustard (today), not good academically, good 3D imagination, learns by doing.
Looking for websites, links, advice on how to start, etc.
What would you say to a potential luthier / cabinetmaker?
Do you know of any stumbling blocks, how to overcome them?
Your experience greatly appreciated.

 

[Adam W.]

I'd speak to the student advice at the local technical college. There is loads of support available to young students.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Very, very, few people get anywhere in bespoke cabinetmaking/furniture-making, many of those that pursue the qualifications end up in factory drone positions of which there are very few now with so many being closed down lately. Smallbone Kitchens for example is one that is on the verge of collapse and have been locked out of their knightsbridge showroom by the landlord, and there are many in similar situations.

The other majority of qualified people in cabinetmaking end up teaching it, either in the colleges or in their own workshops as there is far more money in teaching it than there is actually trying to produce something to sell, but so many have tried and failed that it’s almost a complete non-starter.

Those that are lucky to get employment with a proper cabinetmaker typically are paid very poorly because there is very little profit margin in the job, but more often than not proper cabinetmakers are strictly one person and do not employ so finding a placement is incredibly rare.

If the individual is serious about woodworking, about the best thing they could do would be to pursue an Architectural Joinery qualification, the money still isn’t brilliant but far and above a cabinetmaker, and there are so many positions available right now that if they’re keen and any good at the job they will always be able to find work. The work is enjoyable, with plenty of problem-solving required to keep a busy brain occupied.

Realistically though, the job isn’t future-proof as automation is becoming more and more prevalent even in smaller workshops, eventually only the best employees will be kept on and one be able to do the work of three people in the very near future. The only place where this won’t be the case will be heritage woodwork and working on listed buildings where things will have to be done in a traditional manner.

 

[pe2dave]

I can see why you have the pseudonym @Against_The_Grain !
A very negative view - do you assume everyone is money oriented?
I doubt any job is 'futureproof'.
Warnings acknowledged.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I can see why you have the pseudonym @Against_The_Grain !
A very negative view - do you assume everyone is money oriented?
I doubt any job is 'futureproof'.
Warnings acknowledged.

I don’t think it’s a wholly negative view, I believe it’s a realistic view from someone that’s been in the trade for a long time as a qualified furniture maker, architectural joiner, and wood machinist. I can see the writing on the wall and have seen all the liquidation auctions every week where they used to be a rarity.

You’ve got to be able to afford to live, and proper cabinetmaking unfortunately isn’t going to be able to afford most people that as of right now, if you’re happy slapping together flavourless MDF boxes and fitting them in alcoves and under staircases you might make a little money but that’s the most boring work imaginable. You will find that most self-employed cabinetmakers rarely make minimum wage, often supported by a spouse who is the main earner in the household, or often they made their money in another line of work and do not need to earn as much in their later life and so make furniture to have something to do.

I don’t believe in sugarcoating, it is what it is.

 

[Adam W.]

I'm a good example of taking the path that I set out on when I was 17 at 57 I'm still learning and eyeing up a PhD now. I'm not academic in the traditional sense, although I'm OK at visualising and problem solving, and I'm slowly realising that that is a really useful skill set for experimental archaeology and research.

There's no money in it though, but I have the skills to take on joinery jobs for the shouty man on site when I need some cash, although I do need a few weeks in a dark room afterwards to get over the trauma.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I’d encourage him to try and talk to as many people who are doing it as possible. The Worshipful Company of Furniture Makers and trade bodies may be able to help make some connections. Just knocking on the doors of local joinery and kitchen firms may open up to some work experience. Okay they may not be making fine bespoke furniture but it’s a foot on the ladder.

Clearly there is a dose of realism from those that have done it but there will be successful cabinet makers and luthiers in the future. Good on him for wanting to pursue the chance of being one of them.

 

[Richard_C]

I am retired from a long careeer in senior HR work, and have seen the vast number of people who trudge reluctantly to work every day because they have to rather then because they want to . I've had long periods like that as well, its the reality of life. Skilled work is precarious, automation and all that, sometimes poor management, but if its what you want to do, why not try? Is affording a BMW more important than enjoying every day at work?

One thing we are getting better at as a country is mid life career changes. Apprenticeships are no longer a boat that departs at 16 and once missed never comes back. Our local hospital is happy to train up people to all kinds of jobs - pharmacy dispensing assistant as an example, decent regular pay. So if you really want to do something, you can give it a go and retrain at say 25 if it doesn't work out.

A few things to think about. The obvious one is apprenticeships, there should be good advice from schools and colleges. Second is think laterally, what else uses the hands on skills. Restoration & repair is less likely to fall victim to automation, maybe look at a summer volunteering 'job' with National Trust or English Heritage if they do such things. What else uses wood? Son of a former colleage went off to be a boatbuillder, not heard of him for a long time but I know he was using his skills to make bespoke furniture as a side business. This may all be unrealistic but unless you ask you don't find out.

(Good with 3D thinking, if big and strong and head for heights maybe a scaffolder - from what I paid for some scaffold for a roofing job that looks like a well paid business to be in. Hard work though)

Back in the 70's I was on a panel that interviewed 15/16 year olds for apprenticeships in a big engineering factory - we took on about 100 a year into our own first year school then they went out to the departments to specialize - millers, turners and so on. Its hard to find much to talk about to a 15 year old still at school, so we asked them to bring something they had made. You coudn't judge by quality because we knew the local schools all had very different facilities. But you could talk about it - why did you use brass for that bit? (teacher told me to vs it doesn't corrode) so why not all brass? (teacher told me to vs mild steel is cheaper if you made lots) and so on. It's unrealistic to expect a 15 year old to answer deeply technical questions, but anything which showed a spark of interest and understanding helps. So be curious, ask why as well as what and how, be able to explain yourself if you get a interview.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I am retired from a long careeer in senior HR work, and have seen the vast number of people who trudge reluctantly to work every day because they have to rather then because they want to . I've had long periods like that as well, its the reality of life. Skilled work is precarious, automation and all that, sometimes poor management, but if its what you want to do, why not try? Is affording a BMW more important than enjoying every day at work?

People too often make the mistake of thinking that the woodworking industry is all sunshine and rainbows compared to other lines of work. Much like every other line of work, it is also filled with highly stressed, underpaid, and totally depressed miserable people on all sorts of drugs. The amount of people I’ve seen give up their job after X amount of years to pursue a career in woodworking and give it up after a matter of months to go back to what they were doing previously is outstanding, this was particularly high during and just after the Pandemic when people’s heads were filled with all sorts of silly ideas of an easy life out of the office.

I’ve been fortunate to have had excellent training in the distant past which is sorely lacking in modern institutions, the quality of education has been watered down to the point where the only reason you will go to a college and waste three years is to gain a piece of paper that makes out that you are a qualified individual, whilst the college gets several thousand pounds doing for it so they push through as many as possible with no care to their education whatsoever.

I would not employ anyone based on qualifications gained after the millennium as so many with them simply cannot do the job to an acceptable standard, the CSCS card system has been an absolute shambles and there’s more cowboys in the general trades then there has ever been because the agenda is to build as many houses as quickly as possible, houses will have to start falling down and killing people before anyone does anything about it, much like Grenfell Tower.

For all my negativity, the woodworking trade has given me a lot over the years, and I’ve enjoyed it for the most part but I wouldn’t recommend it to most people at least in its current state. I know most serious professionals who have been at it long enough will also have similar sentiments, things have changed drastically in the last twenty years for the absolute worst.

 

[worn thumbs]

Tell the young chap to beware of individuals that waffle about "fine furniture" and refer to the guys that do the job as "my craftsmen".Also remember that there is more to woodworking than furniture.Once upon a time,I would have suggested patternmaking but I believe the last college course died out quite some time ago.Building stage and film sets still goes on,but isn't exactly regular work.In the Malvern area there may be opportunities with the Morgan car company.

 

[nosuchhounds]

I have long wanted to make a transition into retraining as a cabinet maker, bespoke furniture maker etc. I emailed some local professionals as pretty much got the same answer, the money is poor, the work is long and they cant or wont take anyone on as it would cost too much. None of them would even let me come down to their shop for a chat. I wasnt wanting work from a visit just a good face to face chat as i feel that l, maybe not them, but a lot of people palm emails off, thinking that the sender is just a chancer that stuck some shelves up once. Long gone are the days of knocking on a door and asking to look around (something my dad still thinks is viable!)

 

[pe2dave]

Tell the young chap to beware of individuals that waffle about "fine furniture" and refer to the guys that do the job as "my craftsmen".Also remember that there is more to woodworking than furniture.Once upon a time,I would have suggested patternmaking but I believe the last college course died out quite some time ago.Building stage and film sets still goes on,but isn't exactly regular work.In the Malvern area there may be opportunities with the Morgan car company.

Yes, that's another good 'quiet corner' (Morgan). English heritage, restoration, all 'corners' of the trade rather than mainstream as it once was.
thanks, another avenue.

 

[pe2dave]

I have long wanted to make a transition into retraining as a cabinet maker, bespoke furniture maker etc. I emailed some local professionals as pretty much got the same answer, the money is poor, the work is long and they cant or wont take anyone on as it would cost too much. None of them would even let me come down to their shop for a chat. I wasnt wanting work from a visit just a good face to face chat as i feel that l, maybe not them, but a lot of people palm emails off, thinking that the sender is just a chancer that stuck some shelves up once. Long gone are the days of knocking on a door and asking to look around (something my dad still thinks is viable!)

Something I suggested (knocking on doors).
You make it sound as if you need to be a (self) salesman to even get the door answered! Understandable, though an HR person talked about .gov support (and pay) for engineering apprenticles so perhaps they are being valued a little more now that we're seeing so many unemployed graduates.

 

[nosuchhounds]

Something I suggested (knocking on doors).
You make it sound as if you need to be a (self) salesman to even get the door answered! Understandable, though an HR person talked about .gov support (and pay) for engineering apprenticles so perhaps they are being valued a little more now that we're seeing so many unemployed graduates.

Thats one thing that baffles me. We are crying out for trades or people who want to transition into a trade. I was/am hugely put off by getting into trades, especially site based ones, due to the attitude and environment that surrounds it. Im probably over exaggerating it but its always put me off

 

[Jameshow]

People too often make the mistake of thinking that the woodworking industry is all sunshine and rainbows compared to other lines of work. Much like every other line of work, it is also filled with highly stressed, underpaid, and totally depressed miserable people on all sorts of drugs. The amount of people I’ve seen give up their job after X amount of years to pursue a career in woodworking and give it up after a matter of months to go back to what they were doing previously is outstanding, this was particularly high during and just after the Pandemic when people’s heads were filled with all sorts of silly ideas of an easy life out of the office.

I’ve been fortunate to have had excellent training in the distant past which is sorely lacking in modern institutions, the quality of education has been watered down to the point where the only reason you will go to a college and waste three years is to gain a piece of paper that makes out that you are a qualified individual, whilst the college gets several thousand pounds doing for it so they push through as many as possible with no care to their education whatsoever.

I would not employ anyone based on qualifications gained after the millennium as so many with them simply cannot do the job to an acceptable standard, the CSCS card system has been an absolute shambles and there’s more cowboys in the general trades then there has ever been because the agenda is to build as many houses as quickly as possible, houses will have to start falling down and killing people before anyone does anything about it, much like Grenfell Tower.

For all my negativity, the woodworking trade has given me a lot over the years, and I’ve enjoyed it for the most part but I wouldn’t recommend it to most people at least in its current state. I know most serious professionals who have been at it long enough will also have similar sentiments, things have changed drastically in the last twenty years for the absolute worst.

Talk about pulling up the drawbridge!!!

 

[Adam W.]

Yes, that's another good 'quiet corner' (Morgan). English heritage, restoration, all 'corners' of the trade rather than mainstream as it once was.
thanks, another avenue.

It's where I work, it's not so fantastic. The main companies that hog the work are a complete shambles with poor managers who know little about historic work and they employ cheap agency staff for all trades.

They struggle to get decent staff because of this.

I think I'm the only person who works directly for the company that gives me work and they are pretty much the largest in London.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Talk about pulling up the drawbridge!!!

They asked for advice and I gave my honest opinion as a professional. As said, I don’t sugar coat things.

What needs to be remembered this is predominantly a forum made up of hobbyists that greatly enjoy woodworking in their spare time, there are some veterans of the industry at all levels but not many so most of the advice will be from people who are not time served with no real world experience in the woodworking trade and there will be a bias towards the “Sunshine and Rainbows” ethos which simply does not exist, at least commercially.

This started for me as a hobby many years ago which over time became a sort of career, I do still enjoy it and I am happy enough with a full belly, but no matter what I will not enjoy it as I did when it was simply a hobby pottering in my small shed after school making bits and bobs.

 

[clogs]

I did a mechanical engineering apprenticeship.....5 years off really poorly paid drudgery.....
BUT it has allowed me to work n travel a lot of the world......

woodwork....
I knew of a custom wood fabricators in Los Angeles 40 odd years ago and they made gates and everything else anyone could want.....
their custom carved hardwood driveway gates started at a min of $ 25,000 US......prob 50 -80 craftsmen......
the waiting list for trainee's was very selective and long......
there u worked 4 days a week for nothing and u could use the machines to make ur own stuff/jobs to get money on the last day....
most when finished their 5 year training stayed on due to good money and interesting work....
prob long gone now along with the owner......

Very hard to advise a young un......
shame we're not building Mosquito planes anymore as now would be a good time to be in the military....

got to say if asked would I do it again, yes most def but I would make more effort to get to OZZ or NZ..they seem to be more forward thinking......need to ask our memebers down that way for a comment........

Just remembered.....met a young man when I lived in France that was as described above, not accademic but good with his head and hands.....
he went to a full time college specializing in wooden house building /restoration.....
he went to visit NZ for his hols and got a job as an improver carpentor.....
for the last 10 years now he has his own company and doing quite well....
Mind he had to thank the great earthquake in Christchurch for the extra work when starting to work there....
it's all about luck I'm afraid......

 

[Daniel2]

Without wishing at all to put the young chap off, I find myself, for once,
reluctantly agreeing largely with the sentiments expressed by @Against_The_Grain .
Whilst he should be encouraged to follow whatever dream he has, it is important to
retain one's feet on the ground also. To delude him otherwise would only lead to
disappointment.
If he still wants to follow it, armed with the knowledge of the realities, then go for it.
Maybe he's a particularly intelligent chap, and already realises that money isn't the
be all and end all of everything.

 

[pe2dave]

If he still wants to follow it, with the knowledge of the realities, then go for it.
Maybe he's a particularly intelligent chap, and already realises that money isn't the
be all and end all of everything.

btw, it's a rather intelligent young lady ;-)