Advice needed on hobby setup - wood, bench, router...

[ithium]

Hi people

I found the UKWorkshop forums today when doing some research and I must say I've already found out a lot from reading the posts here. I've got to the point where I'm a bit stuck with some things and i figured this is probably the best place to ask.

I'll start out by describing a bit about what I'm up to, so that you understand the context

Basically I'm a keen hobbyist. I've been "into" woodwork pretty much all my life, and I have a fairly good set of various tools. I'm somewhat competent at getting stuff done, and I usually acheive a good level of finish, but I'm no expert and much of the jargon confuses me. For instance, I only found out yesterday that planed-all-round wood isn't actually the quoted size!

I started off with one shelf that I wanted to inversely round the edge of, so it would fit against another object. This is when I discovered what a router is. Well, my eyes lit up when I realised what I could do with such a tool! I started looking into it and decided that I want one mounted in a bench, because I definitely prefer the idea of moving wood past the router rather than moving the router past the wood. So I looked at various benches and decided the best thing is to build myself a large, sturdy workbench in the garage.

My wife approved of this idea (I've learnt always to run things past her! ) with the condition that I make her a new wardrobe, and an easel for her painting... I've also been working out plans for (don't laugh!) two indoor guinea pig cages for her. So I've gone from wanting to finish one shelf, to an idea involving workbench, two cages, a wardrobe, an easel, and probably a lot more stuff. All good fun!

On the workbench side of things, I found a Draper 1400 bench (link) which looked nice, but is rather pricey (£189, usually £277 :shock. I figured I could do a bit better by building one myself, so I've planned out one that will be 1800x800x900mm (lwh). Using redwood I've priced it up as £85 That's using a nice 5cm-thick top, sturdy legs, and a shelf underneath, etc. My plan is to mount a router and a circular saw in the bench, and set up an adjustable/removable fench for use when running wood past the router and saw. So ideally both of those need to be retractable in some way...

So that's the background, which leads me to my questions.

1. Router: I'm having problems figuring out what router to get, and how to mount it. I know I definitely want a 1/2" one, to take 1/2" and 1/4" bits, and I also want one that's fairly powerful, say 1.5hp or more. But I also don't have a load on money to chuck around - after all, this is "just" a hobby! I was hoping to pay about £60 for a router - I've found a plunge router for that price that looks okay, but it doesn't seem to be designed for bench mounting, and I'm not sure how to go about that. I've found some very useful sites telling me all about how to do the actual bench side of the mounting, which seems straightforward enough, but the router side of things is more tricky. I don't want a router that comes in its own bench, but all other routers seem to be just hand-held ones - I've read about a router "base" but I don't really know if I need one of those or what to do about fitting etc. Ideally I would be able to detach the router from the bench occasionally and use it as a hand-held...

2. Circular saw: Like the router, I have no real idea what I'm doing here. I just want a decent saw that I can mount in the bench... the idea is to have the blade protruding up through the bench, but that raises questions of how exactly to mount it, how cut depth will be affected, etc. There's also the safety issue of having a great sharp thing sticking up, so I'd like to be able to retract it safely when not in use, but still have it firm/stable enough when cutting. Then there's the question about saws that "chop", and I get a bit confused... ideally looking to pay the same as the router, about £60, but once more they all seem to be hand-held.

3. Positioning: Once I get the router and saw figured out, I have to work out where to put them! I was thinking of putting the router dead-centre, and the saw half-way between the router and one end, aligned along the length of the bench rather than the width. Bearing in mind that the bench will be 1800x800mm, is that the best way to do it?

4. Jigsaw: I already have a hand-held jigsaw, which is very useful, but I was thinking how cool it would be to mount one onto the bench. This is nowhere near as important as the router and circular saw, but it would be nice... again there are the questions of how to mount it etc. etc. and I'd not want to pay too much.

5. Drill: As with the jigsaw, this is another less-important thing, but when I was at school many years ago we had a drill machine that you pulled the drill bit down into the wood. I have a hand-held drill but if it would be cheap and worth doing then it would again be nice to mount a drill somehow.

6. Wood type: Ideally I would want to make the bench top and the fence from hardwood, but the cheapest I can find is "Idigbo" which for 50x125 is £6.16/m for sawn, and £7.70/m for planed, but the planed also comes with a planing fee :? By way of comparison, 50x125 in softwood (fifths) is less than £3/m. I don't know anything about Idigbo and I don't know if it's worth paying the extra to get hardwood for the bench top and fence?

7. Wood source/costs: I didn't initially realise that getting wood was going to be so difficult! In this age of the Internet, I am used to sitting here and ordering everything online, from Christmas presents to Tesco groceries. However many timber mills do not even have prices online, can't even email them to me, and one I rang said they didn't even know their current prices! So I was very pleased when I found a timber site that had a nice e-commerce setup, with clear prices etc. - and then I found they only deliver to counties close-by to them. Grrr. I then went through every timber merchant in my area that I could find, and eventually found a couple that are cheaper than all the others in my area, and delivery isn't too bad either. So I'm wondering, how do other people get their timber? (I'm in Somerset by the way.) Even the cheapest I can find is more expensive than I was expecting, but thankfully not so much that it would be pointless. I also am surprised that the thinnest I can find seems to be 25mm, which I gather is actually 20mm when planed. Some places apparently do 16mm but it seems a lot more expensive. So my plan is to simple cut some 20mm stuff in half with the circular saw if I need 10mm. Is this a good idea? Plus there's the question of quality... I've recently discovered that "unsorted" is the best, then "saw falling" and then "fifths". Why they are called that I have no clue... I priced all my stuff and then found that particular company only do fifths, and the second company I'm looking at (Robbins in Bristol) do all three grades but I'm waiting for their actual prices (pretty similar though). I've actually spent about a week or two looking into all this and I think that PAR softwood is the best way to go... Redwood (that's a kind of pine I think?) seems to be the norm. When I say "best" I'm basically after the cheapest possible wood that I can get that will be suitable to work with and not look awful. I'd also like to find a source of cheap hardwood, as I can see myself wanting to build something like an oak coffee table in the future (I've found Interesting Timbers, which is near me, and Goulden Hardwoods, which is online... not sure if these two are the best prices though?). So, am I looking at the right types of wood, and are there any tips about where to get it from?

8. Finishing: I was planning on simply using either some cheap varnish (if I need a hard finish) or else oil/wax or something. Is there anything I need to be aware of here? Like, is it better to varnish the workbench top, or just oil/wax it, or leave it bare?

...I think that's it! Actually a lot more typing that I had expected, so a big thank-you to anyone who reads it all

 

[Shultzy]

Welcome ithium to the forum, this sure is a long post and the reply will require a lot of typing . Lets start at the beginning, how big is your workshop as this will determine what sort of machinery you can buy. Secondly a workbench is usually just that, having other items router saw etc fixed in it is not a good idea. If you haven't the space its better to make three separates at the same height on wheels so that you can combine them for a larger surface.

I don't think that saw inserts are made, similar to router table inserts, and most circular saws only have a 50mm cut.

If cash is limited,

Router - look at the Erbauer on Screwfix.
Saw - check out the table saws and make a table for it.
Jigsaw - not very good upside down better to get a bandsaw
Drill - Screwfix have a pillar drill for £40
Wood - there are better people on the forum with this info

 

[MikeG.]

Ithium,
hello and welcome.....

There is too much there for me to deal with at the moment when I am supposed to be working, but a couple of things immediately:

firstly, Shultzy is dead right about the tools being fixed to the bench. It just wont work. Keep your workbench clear of all obstacles. There are dozens of way you can do a decent router table which doesn't occupy much space. I have two, the oldest being one that is gripped in the vice when I need it, and stands against the wall most of the time......but the main one is on a fold-up flap off the front of a saw bench.

Secondly, make your bench frame as sturdy as possible.....great big chunks of wood, bolted lap joints, diagonal dracing or solid panels, and it doesn't really matter whether the frame is hardwood or softwood. Idigbo is a really lovely wood, and I would save it for a project in the house and make your bench out of pine. The bench top I would make out of beech. Have a look at a few of the workshop tours on here.....

Oh........and just forget the circular saw thing!!! Way, way too dangerous. I mean irresponsibly dangerous!!

I'll try and remember to return to this later.............

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

i concur with the other guys - keep your work area clear and your power tools seperate to your workbench. Your circular saw should either be in a saw table or on a set of rails or sled - definitely not sticking up through your main work surface. (ditto with the jig saw - keep this for hand held work and look at either a bandsaw or fret saw depending on what you want to do)

Drill - you are describing a pillar drill - these are available either bench standing or floor standing and range from 50 notes to a couple of hundred depending on what you want - check out axminster power for a decent range.

wood - there are loads of timber yards arround , but if you want to buy via the net you could check out S&L hardwoods - they are in surrey but will deliver uk wide.

I concur also that it would be a waste of money to build your bench out of ingibo - use softwoods , and top it either with beech or with several sheets of 18mm mdf

 

[ithium]

Thanks for the replies so far... it seems you all concur that i should not have my saw poking out of the bench! Perhaps I should explain why I came up with such a crazy idea...

In my head I visualise the following: I have my large bench, and I need to saw or rout some wood. So, let's say I'm working with a 2m length of 25x200 pine. I imagine sliding this across the top of the bench - thereby making use of its large flat surface - into the mouth of the saw or router or whatever. I have seen some circular saws that appear to be bench-mountable but they seem to do so by having a sort of bracket that gets screwed to the top of the bench. This leaves me wondering how to get the wood past the saw blade - it doesn't seem clever to have to raise the working level above that of the bench top...? does that make any sense...

I have seen examples online of people who have built a workbench and then mounted a router in it from underneath... this seems to be a good idea; can someone explain why it is not? If it's not possible to move a circular saw then I can understand that a) it would get in the way (which I don't want) and b) it it potentially quite dangerous, but surely the router can be retracted and the hole covered up when not in use? Or am I just talking complete and utter nonsense here!!!

So basically I think I need a circular saw - the reason I think I need one is for making straight cuts in wood... my jigsaw is not great at that. I now don't know how to actually use the circular saw. I don't want to be holding the saw - I'd prefer for the saw to be fixed and for me to move the wood past it. So how do I accomplish this, basically... sorry for the ignorance!

I've never heard of a band saw but I imagine it to be something like a jigsaw, and I don't know what a table saw is specifically but I guess it's maybe just a circular saw in a table? Well I'm off to Google those in a minute... not sure why I should make a seperate table for the table saw if it could attach to my main bench?

Pillar drill - yup that's the one I was thinking of, but I didn't know what it was called. If I've got this right, I can simply fix one to the edge of the workbench.

I'm going to be setting up in the garage - it's a large double garage with rafters, and at the moment it's just got junk in it. I'd say it's maybe 20'x30', but that's just a guess. It's plenty big, anyhow, and although we never park our cars in it I was still thinking of making some sort of wheel contraption for the workbench (something I can lower so that when in use the wheels are out of the way) to move the bench away if needed. So I don't need to make three separates as I have plenty of space, but, if I did have three seperates, then when combined by putting them next to each other wouldn't that essentially be the same as having a single large bench with all the tools in it? :? Or am I being thick again.

Moving on to woods... I've spent literally all day looking at woods online, and I feel I know a little bit more than I did earlier. I was originally looking at PAR redwood pine, but from what I've read I'm thinking it would be better to go for sawn, and do the planing and thicknessing myself. This means that I'd need a planer/thicknesser, or something. The sawn seems to be about 2/3 of the price of the PAR, which means that I'd save the cost of the planer/thicknesses in no time, I figure, and surely it can't be that hard to do So I have no idea what kind of planer/thicknesser to go for, or how that gets set up in relation to my bench, etc. - bah! More research needed!

So do other people concur that getting sawn would be better? I think I've established where to get that from... however I'm still wondering about the whole "unsorted" vs "fifths" thing. I really don't know the difference. So at the moment I'm thinking that I will get "fifths" because it's cheaper, but if that turns out to be bad for some reason then I could use "unsorted" for future projects. Unless I'm missing something and I should stay away from "fifths" altogether? :? Basically, will it be okay to make a workbench out of fifths? For a wardrobe, should I go for unsorted instead? Is it actually at all important? (All I can figure is that maybe it's something to do with the amount of knots... I don't think I mind knots... should I?)

Oh, and does it matter whether I put a layer of beech on top of the workbench, or just leave it as all pine?

Right... I'm off to investigate these interesting tools some more.

 

[Argee]

There are a couple of ready-made systems that utilise both routers and circular saws by inverting them into purpose-built chassis frames. The most often referred to is the Triton Workshop System. Another system is made by Festool, but is considerably more expensive.

This method differs from inserting tools into a workbench, in that it's purpose-made and - in the case of the Triton system - has a pressed steel top - thin yet strong enough so as not to lose much of the depth-of-cut of the tools. It also includes a fence and guards for the blade, so is much safer and more sophisticated than sticking a circular saw blade up through a bench. The system includes an accessory replacement top for affixing a router. This top can also be used separately, on its own stand. There are pictures and descriptions of all this kit on a page I wrote here. Most of it can be obtained here, but it's not cheap.

If you're intending to use a router on more than the odd occasion, then wait and save up for a decent one - it will pay dividends time and time again, not only from a better quality machine, but with a better-quality experience too. Triton do two router models, as will be seen at the foot of the first page referred to above. Other equally powerful routers are available, from a variety of good-quality makers, but I am delighted with my Triton machines.

HTH

Ray.

 

[Shultzy]

ithium, you sure can type . Right now we know how big your workshop is we can target our responses a bit better. Firstly check out these woodworking video channels, it will give you an idea on how table saws, routers , bandsaws etc are used.

http://www.woodworkingonline.com/
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
http://www.woodworkingchannel.com/dolph ... ibrary.php

Next you have to decide whether you are going to make woodworking a long term hobby. If so its worth spending a reasonable amount of money on decent machines, whether bought second hand or new.

The workshop usually revolves around a decent table saw or bandsaw (depending on requirements). Next is usually a planer/thicknesser either as a single machine or separates. Believe me being able to cut timber and boards, square and exact sizes is a pre-requisite for good projects. All of these machines can be on wheels so are easily moved around.

 

[OPJ]

Hi, ithium and, welcome to the forum!

Where are you in Somerset?

You've already found them but, I highly recommend Interesting Timbers for hardwoods - nice guys, good prices and excellent service to top it all off.

I'm wary of dealing with Robbins as they specialise in supplying the Marine trade and, coincidentally, jack up the rest of their prices to suit! :shock:

Almost down the road from them is Bristol City Timber. Their prices seem very reasonable and the quality of their redwood (unsorted, u/s is generally all you'll need) is supposed to be very good.

You may also want to look at Clarks Wood though, they don't do small orders and generally speaking, anything you want from them can usually be purchased elswhere (sometimes for less...).

Lathams in Yate have a good reputation and their hardwood prices do appear to be pretty good. I may be dealing with them myself shortly as I need some American Cherry for my college project.

Back to Somerset and, Yandles should be one of your first ports of call. Always worth a day out there and they're great for one-off exotic species' and turning blanks. Prices are a bit steep, unless you go during their sale times (April and September, you've just missed one!).

I hope this helps. Most of the above will probably deliver as well.

 

[johnjin]

Hi Ithium

I think it would be a good idea to order this catalogue from Axminster.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/catalogue_re ... cle_id=cat

It is free and will give you a good idea as to what is available and what you can afford.

Hope this helps

John

 

[ithium]

Argee: Awesome, I'll have to look for those frames. I think I came across a Triton thingy whilst looking around earlier... that might be worth considering. Maybe I can get one cheap off ebay! I've got your page open but it's fairly long so I'll have to digest it in several sittings. Very useful though!

However I have gone and found myself an additional requirement: I want to be able to use the router horizontally, too. I'd never considered it before, but found talk about it on these forums and once I realised the advantages, that was it! I have to be able to do that! So that complicates my whole setup. Hmmmm...

Shultzy: ...yeah, sorry about all the typing My day job is spent in front of a computer - I run a software company - and so I'm always typing. Anyway, thanks for those links - I'm going to work my way through those over the weekend.

Woodworking is certainly a long-term thing. I've always loved it, and I don't see myself giving it up at any point. I'm not quite 30 yet so I think I have hopefully many more years of fun! So I will be attempting to get quality kit, although I don't want to spend *too* much either! I'm going to be hunting on eBay, that's for sure!

OPJ: I'm in Stoke St Michael, next to Shepton Mallet. The main place that I've been looking at for softwood is Timber Supplies in Kingswood, Bristol - they seem to have pretty decent prices, although they only sell "fifths" and not "unsorted". The irony is that I lived in Kingswood up until a year ago - ah well. I'll be ringing the others that you linked to - Lathams certainly have a good supply of hardwood but it's so annoying that hardly anyone has online prices. Grrr. Oh, and I found Yandles earlier but I couldn't figure them out - do they even sell softwood? Seems like they just have some planks of hardwood and then weird bowls and things? :? All the rest you mentioned are new to me though, so I'll be investigating them!

johnjin: Cool - I've started downloading that catalogue. Might get a paper copy too, but think of the trees! :lol:

All: So as mentioned above to Argee, I now want my router horizontal as well as vertical... plus I'm still trying to figure out whether it's worth saving some cash and buying "fifths" or not... now back to the research I go; still trying to figure out all these different types of saw

 

[OPJ]

Yandles don't really do much in the way of softwoods. You may find southern yellow pine in stock but, I doubt you'll ever see a length of redwood in their shed!

I think unsorted is the best grade you can buy...? A lot of places seem to stock "fifths" quality redwood, it should be fine for any joinery work. As long as it comes in from Russia or Scandinavia - and not B&Q - then you're on the right track! Five years and two courses at college and yet, I still can't remember how the grading system works!! :shock:

Another couple of names for you to try -Golding Timber in Kingswood and Scaddings, who, I think, are in Easton. I haven't used either company personally but, a former employer used to like them - they must therefore be pretty cheap!! :roll:

 

[neilyweely]

Hey Ithium
Well, the responses you have had already are more qualified than I, what I would take issue with is the recommendation for the erbauer router. No, no, no! Do not do it, it is simply a piece of s**t. You should buy a second hand one, maybe from ebay, and get a better model altogether. Think elu, de walt, makita, triton (particularly if it is going in a table) or trend. I have a small bosch pof500 which i use for detail work, and I have used it in a table. It is only 1/4 inch collet, but is a great little router, and you can pick them up so cheap it is laughable!
In fact almost all of my bench tools are 2nd hand, and I have been very lucky. I now have a great little workshop which has cost me very little. It took a while, but what I did was buy when it became available, not necessarily when needed/wanted. This meant I could get everything cheap.
The other thing I would say is that you should not automatically think 'power tool'. I have some hand tools that I tend to reach for before their powered counterparts, and for single/one off jobs they are often better and quicker. The hand tool will NEVER die!!! Seriously though, if you look around there is a lot of amazing woodwork that was done without the aid of electricity.
So, try 2nd hand tools, try to check 'em first though. And remember, it is usually dangerous to use a tool other than for its intended use. If you want a table saw, buy a table saw. And learn to use all your power tools before you start any projects. You will only cut your hand off once. and it'll be quick.
Woodwork is great, and this forum has been a Godsend to me. Use the forum like a mentor, and take the advice you are given.
And welcome.

Neil

 

[Grinding One]

1 -Pine for structure ,MDF for top of bench,it lays real flat and is replaceable when damaged
2- A pin router (Router mounted on arm above work)it can also have a router mounted under table ,so in one pass you can route both sides...while 1.5 hp routers are fine hand held they do not do big bits very safely..IE door moulding bits....raise panel and the like.
3- Saws ,sounds like you want to cut straight lines well a saw and rail would work well,they can be attached to work from under the work.But if you have the room a nice table saws the trick on casters with locking wheels,and you can mount a router in the extension table....the router will go under very well and you can retract the saw blade then you have a work bench.My saw is 7 ft long with extension table to right of blade.with a shelve underneath it.
4- Wood is not cheap people are,you usually get what you pay for...
5- A scroll saw works for hobbiest,depending on the hobby part.
6-Bandsaws are nice also depending on type of woodworking your going to do..
7- Piller drills are not the expensive tool in the shop...
8-Bench tools are (hand helds) you need a lot of these.
Good luck and buy quality the first time so if you do not find this trade acceptable you can always sell them.Junk tools no one wants.