Advice for tools for joinery

[Tcrowe]

Hi there,

This is my first time posting in the forum. I've been woodworking for the past 2 years mostly focusing on home projects, carpentry and cabinet making but I want to start to learn the joinery side of things. Been very difficult in Ireland for me to find classes to do as most are very basic diy woodwork and also classes haven't been running for obvious reasons. I recently asked the woodwork teacher in the secondary school beside where I work if he would teach me. He very kindly said he would. He has recommended a few tools that I have been looking online the last few weeks to try find but can't seem to find any with a reasonable price. I've built up my kit over the last few months in anticipation of this and have a simple paring chisel set, small engineering square, marking knife, coping saw, marking guage and I've just learnt in the last week how to sharpen chisels properly. He has suggested I get a block plane, shoulder plane and mortise chisels.

My question is does anyone recommend where to get them? I've looked in the usual spots and have been able to find plenty of block planes but I have absolutely no idea what size plane to get if anyone could advise?

I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the mortise chisels as they all seem to be paring chisels.

And the shoulder planes all seem to be extortionate prices and I'm a bit confused if they are the same as a rebate plane?


Really appreciate any advice you can give or any recommendations for other tools I can add to the list.

Thanks,
Tiarnan

 

[Jameshow]

What's you Budget?

I'd get an old Stanley no4 as your first,

Then a block plane and then a no 5 1/2.

You can get a 78 rebate plane but they are expensive and copies are often poorly finished.

As for chisels look at narex not cheap but good quality. Just buy as you need them.

Cheers James

 

[Ollie78]

Second hand is often good for tools, if you are prepared to spend a few hours cleaning them up. I have mostly second hand planes, I have an old Irwin shoulder plane (no. 92 I think) works great cost very little. Look at MHG chisels cheap but decent nice wooden handles with hoops.

Buy what you need as you need it, put alerts on eBay for stuff you are looking for, also check for badly spelled adverts which go unnoticed.
Car boot sales used to be good but obviously there has been a lack of those lately.

You can cut a mortice with a normal bench chisel just fine.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

.....

And the shoulder planes all seem to be extortionate prices and I'm a bit confused if they are the same as a rebate plane?
.....

"shoulder" plane is really a luxury rebate plane and not essential. Best option is the 78 - if sharp is just about as good as a shoulder plane and they are cheap 2nd hand, but often missing the various attachments - still useful without any of them, except must have a blade of course!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

He has recommended a few tools that I have been looking online the last few weeks to try find but can't seem to find any with a reasonable price. I've built up my kit over the last few months in anticipation of this and have a simple paring chisel set, small engineering square, marking knife, coping saw, marking guage and I've just learnt in the last week how to sharpen chisels properly. He has suggested I get a block plane

A reasonable price for a reasonable quality block plain would be around £100. Yes you can get a Stanley for under £35 but it will show in the ease of use, an XMGJ is about ½ the price of a Lie-Nielsen.

With a plain as with a lot of tools if you buy cheep it will not be a good experience.

If you don’t think that £109 is a reasonable price then you need to adjust your ideas of reasonable or be prepared to buy cheep and sell it once you realise it’s not good enough. With chisels there if you get cheaper ones you maybe using your sharpening skills, but unless they are really bad they will still do a good job if you have the skills to use them.

though a shoulder plane and a rebate plane are similar they are not the same though you may be able sometimes to interchange the use. A shoulder plane is designed to cut end grain cleanly, a rebate plain is more often used along the grain, though of course cutting across the grain is one use, cutting end grain is unusual.

if you are cutting a lot of tenons then you want a shoulder plane. If you are fitting a lot of shelves and cabinets then a rebate plain is better. Your work decides the tools you need.

if you have access to good used tools then the price advise changes, a used Stanley block plane in excellent condition should be about £10 definitely not more than£15

 

[Jacob]

A reasonable price for a reasonable quality block plain would be around £100. .......

£30 more like! 2nd hand Stanley 220 very good value and an ideal starter block plane e.g. Vintage stanley No220 Block Plane. Made in England | eBay
PS the later ones are less good - you want the one with a wooden knob like this one on ebay.
PPS just had a browse - there's loads of them available even spotted a new looking one in a box very good value if you want to splash out! VINTAGE STANLEY MADE IN ENG. #220 ADJ.BLOCK PLANE IN ORIGN'L BOX, EXCEL'NT CONDN | eBay

 

[sometimewoodworker]

£30 more like! 2nd hand Stanley 220 very good value and an ideal starter block plane e.g. Vintage stanley No220 Block Plane. Made in England | eBay
PS the later ones are less good - you want the one with a wooden knob like this one on ebay.

I was talking new not used.

You know of a good new block plain for much under £100?

talking of used prices is extremely variable, quality, location, timing, availability, interested parties and luck all factor in.

 

[Jacob]

I was talking new not used.

You know of a good new block plain for much under £100?

talking of used prices is extremely variable, quality, location, timing, availability and luck all factor in.

New tend to be either very expensive or very poor quality. There's a lot of uncertainty either way. I never buy new. Those i just posted up look a safe bet.

 

[Jacob]

.

 

[Adam W.]

Ebay is a good place for quality second hand tools at a good price, but you may have issues with importing stuff to the ROI.

 

[Droogs]

Before sending you down a particular toolpath spending spree, I think we should clarify that you are indeed looking to concentrate on joinery i.e. woodworking related to building infrastructure (properly called a carpenter) or a joiner who creates the trim inside a building such as architrave and stais etc or a cabinet/furniture maker for wooden items to be placed in a completed building.

They all have tools that crossover each field but also some tools that the others wood never use really. If you are talking about bench joinery to make furniture items then that is very different to a carpenter, much wider in terms of the scope of tools used.

It used to be said, "A carpenter hits it with a hammer, a joiner screws it with turnscrew to make it fit and a furniture maker doesn't have to".

 

[Ttrees]

Hello fellow islander
Haven't bought a tool online since brexit, and the demise of parcel motel.
I'd still be looking on ebay, it used to be a small bit of faffing about to find one buy it now listing
which actually would post/have reasonable postage costs, as some areas can be easily double the costs.
Seems the only way to get a reasonably priced plane for instance, as many for sale here on adverts and the likes are either overpriced or not in great nick and still overpriced, but still worth looking about, you might pick up a bench grinder for 20 euros kinda thing,and a cheap pillar drill for 50,
better for that kinda stuff.

Joinery in my eyes, is building site work, and it sounds to me like you want to build furniture?

If so, I'd get the planes out of the way, but I reclaim timber, so that's why it's my priority.
i.e pre dimensioned varnished timbers like door components which I laminate together, rather than getting big partially dry roughsawn slabs of oak for instance, so I don't have a planer or thicknesser.

Agreed that the no.4 is a no brainer for all woodworkers, but I wouldn't be looking for one.
I'd be looking for a 5 1/2 which has a nice thick casting, seen front and back to see the sole hasn't been made thin.
Look for no hairline cracks, mainly in cheeks of the plane, any chips from the mouth, a bit of life in the iron left, and hopefully no cracks in the "tote" handle either.
Here's my pair of 5 1/2's, might explain thick castings.
50 quid buy it now should be around the price I'd expect.

You will stumble across a no.4 while your looking, I wouldn't be spending more than 20 for it
and look for a nice rusty one which actually isn't bad and just needs a lick with some 400g to get nice again.
I never look for any tools all fancied up.

Another reason I'm saying planes is because you can make do with most any other tools like easy to get chisels for instance which you can fettle,
Planes are abundant on ebay, but low on the ground here.

You could also pick up an oilstone, or a few saws which you might or might not find on the ground here, there is very little planes on the market.

As you can imagine, this question pops up frequently, and here is last weeks one where folks had their say.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/tools-fewer-but-more-expensive-or-more-but-cheaper.132897/#
Right NOW in Lidl you will find the best value f clamps you will find!!!

I've just posted about that in the review section,
The crate is getting empty, told herself to pick me up another big one if there's any left.
Can't speak for the smaller ones, but the large one will last forever.
If you're on a budget, and in Eire, then you have to get the deals while you can.
These are so good that you should go into homebase afterwards to see whats on offer, and you'll be running back to lidl to buy more!.

I'd also be scouring the bay for an angle poise/articulated/long reach/architect's lamp.
I couldn't find anything suitable, and got stung with a tiny one played off to look the same.
Just a bit of fun, and well over the top, but maybe this recent video might hint at the importance of the lamp, something which you might not see on the tube, as they would get in the way of the shots.

 

[jcassidy]

Given you're in a Ireland, like me;

Adverts.ie. some semi professional sellers have realistic prices and good stock;

John O'Neill from Lismore. Great man for chisels.
Phillip from Cork loves planes. (just search for router plane and up he pops).
Malmur from Athy (altough he tends to over clean the tools, on positive side the planes are ready to use).

Which is not to say 'cheap', there is a market rate for some of these tools especially the router planes.

Another good source is car boot sales. I recently picked up a 28" skew-back Disston and 10" 12tpi brass-backed S&J tenon saw for €5, after spotting them in a pile of random junk on the ground. No missing teeth, just rust. I also found a No5 Bailey pattern plane with an unused iron for €15 , and Philip in Cork sent me a new handle for another fiver.

Finally auctions, but only if you're up to getting saws and planes back in working order yourself. Easyliveauction.com

Hope this helps

 

[jcassidy]

Oh yes, get you down to lidl and but as many clamps as they have. You wouldn't believe how expensive clamps are (I still can't!)

 

[thetyreman]

you'll need a good quality square, good quality saws, and a set of chisels I prefer bevel edged for most jobs, all of them can be bought second hand, don't think that old = low quality, often they were made better than a lot of modern tools(unless its a premium brand like veritas or lie neilsen), you just have to know what to look for.

It all depends on what work you are planning on doing, I have never used a shoulder plane and never use a block plane, when cutting joints by hand I do it all with chisels and check carefully with squares, if you undercut you undercut, there's no way of putting the wood back on, it's far less time consuming to get it right first time.

 

[recipio]

Your teacher is a bit old school. Do you really want to spend the day hand planing and chopping out mortises ? Just buy one quality tool at a time as the need arises. You will not do any joinery without a set of sash clamps and look for second hand Record clamps which will last a lifetime. Power tools will do the work in a fraction of the time and are just as satisfying to use. I'd start with a router which will cost the same as a shoulder plane but is so much more versatile.

 

[Tcrowe]

What's you Budget?

I'd get an old Stanley no4 as your first,

Then a block plane and then a no 5 1/2.

You can get a 78 rebate plane but they are expensive and copies are often poorly finished.

As for chisels look at narex not cheap but good quality. Just buy as you need them.

Cheers James

Hi James

Thanks for that. Budget wise I'm happy to spend on something that will last. As I built my power tool collection I quickly realised cheap doesn't last. I have a Stanley plane already. Not sure what number it is though. Not in the workshop at the moment to check but this is it. Got them from my wifes grandfather. Haven't had much need for it bar the odd bit of planing so far.

 

[Tcrowe]

£30 more like! 2nd hand Stanley 220 very good value and an ideal starter block plane e.g. Vintage stanley No220 Block Plane. Made in England | eBay
PS the later ones are less good - you want the one with a wooden knob like this one on ebay.
PPS just had a browse - there's loads of them available even spotted a new looking one in a box very good value if you want to splash out! VINTAGE STANLEY MADE IN ENG. #220 ADJ.BLOCK PLANE IN ORIGN'L BOX, EXCEL'NT CONDN | eBay

Thats great mate thanks. I'll defo check these out. Second hand seems to be the way to go. Import and delivery fees to Ireland are a joke though

 

[Tcrowe]

Your teacher is a bit old school. Do you really want to spend the day hand planing and chopping out mortises ? Just buy one quality tool at a time as the need arises. You will not do any joinery without a set of sash clamps and look for second hand Record clamps which will last a lifetime. Power tools will do the work in a fraction of the time and are just as satisfying to use. I'd start with a router which will cost the same as a shoulder plane but is so much more versatile.

As I said I'm new to the joinery side of things so I'm open to advice . Because I've been doing more cabinetry or carpentry based work over the last two years since I started I have built up a good collection of power tools. Have a plunge and trim router and have seen the use of spiral bits to cut mortises so it's something I'll try. Just want to improve how I use a chisel and see furniture making and that type of joinery as way of doing things.

 

[Tcrowe]

Given you're in a Ireland, like me;

Adverts.ie. some semi professional sellers have realistic prices and good stock;

John O'Neill from Lismore. Great man for chisels.
Phillip from Cork loves planes. (just search for router plane and up he pops).
Malmur from Athy (altough he tends to over clean the tools, on positive side the planes are ready to use).

Which is not to say 'cheap', there is a market rate for some of these tools especially the router planes.

Another good source is car boot sales. I recently picked up a 28" skew-back Disston and 10" 12tpi brass-backed S&J tenon saw for €5, after spotting them in a pile of random junk on the ground. No missing teeth, just rust. I also found a No5 Bailey pattern plane with an unused iron for €15 , and Philip in Cork sent me a new handle for another fiver.

Finally auctions, but only if you're up to getting saws and planes back in working order yourself. Easyliveauction.com

Hope this helps

Thats great mate, thanks for those tips I'll check those guys out on adverts. As I said its just knowing what to look for. I haven't seen a car boot sale in ireland in ages!!