Advice for sorting out this porch

[Stirling]

Hi, I bought a Victorian end-terrace at the beginning of last year and have been renovating ever since, pretty much starting from scratch. One of the final pieces to this jigsaw is the incredibly cold porch, which is single glazed (on 2 sides and a small pane above the door) and doesn't have a second internal door meaning that any heat we get in the house promptly disappears.

I've been pestered by various people to replace the whole thing with uPVC which there's no way I'd do. Next I pondered removing the glass and rebating to allow for double glazed units but have read a couple of old topics on this forum on which the overall flavour was "DON'T DO IT". Is this still current thinking? I'm aware that it would be a huge amount of work but would the benefits be worth it?

Are there any other routes I could go down?

More photos attached

 

[Doug71]

I would be tempted to start again with it, it looks like it's had a few alterations over the years, are there any others around similar that you can copy? It might have originally just been a roof on two posts and someone decided to enclose it.

Could you add an internal door, would be better for security as well as keeping the heat in.

Doug

 

[MikeG.]

Porches were always meant to be secondary rooms. A half-way house, if you like, between the warm house and the cold outside. I suggest putting an insulated external door back on the inside, where the old external door would once have been in the main brick gable wall of the house. You will then have your warmth retained where it was always meant to be retained. Please don't even consider uPVC.

Oh, and re-building would be quicker, probably cheaper, and certainly easier, than trying to upgrade the existing.

 

[ColeyS1]

If you opted for slimlite double glazing you probably wouldn't need to alter the rebate.

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[deema]

I suspect that the windows are the lowest leakage area for the heat. The floor is probably not insulated and the roof is likely to have no insulation either. If you just tackle the windows, you will probably see little improvement.

I would put a door internally again to allow you to drop the whole thing and rebuild it. You can build it in sections that you would assembly into the finished item. A nice and relatively easy project for over the winter.

 

[Stirling]

Thanks for the responses folks, much appreciated.

To answer a few questions:

• - There aren't any others like this on the street to copy unfortunately. Not sure when or why it was done.
  - Sadly I can't see a way that an internal door could work as that's what I was hoping for originally. There's very little space there. One step through the archway (which is in line with the gable end of the house) and you have the lounge door one way, dining room door straight ahead and stairs directly to the left. I contemplated some sort of folding door but, thinking it would look horrendous, gave up on that idea.
  - I'm loathe to rebuild the entire thing as this was always a renovation project, granted the plan was to live in it longer than a couple of years but now have a second child on the way so will have to move to a bigger place
  - Just called Slimlite in Edinburgh. They're going to take a look to see if it's feasible. The rebate on the window is 15mm so too short given that the smallest unit is 9mm plus 2mm bedding plus I'm told you need a minimum of 6mm putty. If I were to go down this route what would be the best option to rebate in-situ by, say, a further 5-7mm?
  - Take the point about the other areas possibly adding to the heat leakage, but I've insulated and replastered the ceiling (pitch not flat) with 50mm kingspan which was as much as would fit in between the rafters. Apparently in the 70s there was some grant that allowed people to concrete their entire house removing the floorboards, so the porch and dining room is concreted, then tiled. They didn't do the lounge for some reason, that's a suspended floor. The tongue and groove isn't insulated so will do that when I box in the elec meter and shoe rack (yet another job on the list

 

[AJB Temple]

If you are selling up, you are now in the realm of cosmetic work only. First impressions count, but no one examines the porch in detail once they are through the door.

 

[ColeyS1]

What about beads instead of putty ?

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[MikeG.]

If you're going to use Slimlite, make sure you move out quickly. They don't last 5 minutes in my experience.

 

[AndyT]

Another option, especially on non-opening windows, is to add some secondary glazing.
I used plastic sheet, fixed with magnetic tape, concealed behind small mouldings, as seen here. Simple and cheap.

secondary-glazing-pondering-t76212.html

 

[HappyHacker]

I would be tempted to make two windows to replace the existing front and side glazing with possibly three tall double glazed panes running the full height of the window. Then take the existing windows out leaving the corner posts and put the new windows in. If you do a scale drawing you could see if that would look reasonable. Possibly curved at the top to match the window above the door.

 

[worn thumbs]

I'm glad I don't have a porch like that to deal with-too many small glazing bars to deal with.Mine was,I think,added to my victorian house in the days when improvement grants encouraged additions and updates and the cowboys had a field day.I have removed a lot of rotten wood and replaced the flat roof and am gradually replacing the glass with sealed units.I have had to add depth to the rebates and most of it hasn't been too difficult with a fence on the router.The corners have needed some work with a chisel and a bullnose plane and have taken longer than the routed areas.Has it been worth it?Well it hasn't made things worse.Does it justify the time and effort?Maybe.

 

[Student]

Re your comment about an internal i.e. "sadly I can't see a way that an internal door could work as that's what I was hoping for originally. There's very little space there. One step through the archway (which is in line with the gable end of the house) and you have the lounge door one way, dining room door straight ahead and stairs directly to the left.", is it not possible to pack out the threshold and stops of the old exterior door, add a new thin door casing and fit a smaller internal door that opens outwards into the porch?

This from someone who knows nothing about such matters.

 

[Stirling]

Thanks again for all the responses. So many options!

A friend dropped in yesterday to take a look at a sash that I wanted to double glaze (He's recently done that to every window in his house). Turns out it won't be possible as the frame is very fine so won't take any more rebating. He took a look at the porch and his suggestion, given that we want to sell up, is to secondary glaze. So 5 panes of glass each in its own small frame. I asked about condensation and he said he'd never had a problem with one that he did. I'm sceptical.

AndyT - very impressed with that. You can't even tell there's a secondary sheet there at all. I don't have space in each pane to hide the steel and magnetic strip so would you get 5 larger sheets and sit each in a frame? (So for the panes you can see in the first pic I attached you'd have one sheet for the bottom two rows then another for the top row of 5 panes)
Also, which sheet manufacturer did you go for?

Student - not sure I completely follow but a having an internal door opening outwards into the porch would be a very tight squeeze. Walking in from outside you'd have to open both doors before being able to step into the porch.

 

[bugbear]

Observation on the history - the (low) brickwork and steps certainly look identical to the main body of the house, so I would say they are certainly original.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you want to sell, I'd think anyone buying would look to serious improvement anyway so you'd be wasting time, effort, and money doing anything at all.

 

[AndyT]

AndyT - very impressed with that. You can't even tell there's a secondary sheet there at all. I don't have space in each pane to hide the steel and magnetic strip so would you get 5 larger sheets and sit each in a frame? (So for the panes you can see in the first pic I attached you'd have one sheet for the bottom two rows then another for the top row of 5 panes)
Also, which sheet manufacturer did you go for?

I can also add that after 3+ years it's still looking invisible, and I've not needed to remove it to clear condensation or even clean the plastic. Admittedly, it's well out of the way, so there's zero risk of scratching. I don't know exactly what it was - I relied on Rafezetter's good advice.

The magnetic tape is simple and neat. It's 12mm wide though, and you don't have an easy flat surround to work with, especially where the two windows meet in the corner. I reckon you'd need to glue a couple of little strips of wood on there to give you room. That would look odd at first as it would reduce the visible size of the last row of panes, but I bet you'd soon not see it and I doubt many other people would.

I'd go for two big sheets on the windows, even if it meant bringing the surface forward a little, but it's your call. The big advantage of the plastic is that you don't end up waving sheets of heavy, scary glass around.

 

[ColeyS1]

If you want to sell, I'd think anyone buying would look to serious improvement anyway so you'd be wasting time, effort, and money doing anything at all.

I agree. I missed the part about wanting to sell it on.

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[Stirling]

Thanks again for all the advice, lots of food for thought.

For the sale I need to tidy the porch up a bit, re-putty and re-paint etc. Think this is essential as it's the first thing a buyer will see. Once that's all done I'll decide if it's worth adding the secondary glazing or the sheets. Shame we're not sticking around as I'd have loved to have a crack at starting something from scratch, oak framed.

Cheers

 

[Student]

Hi Stirling

Sorry for the delay in following up your post of 12 October.

I was assuming that the arch from the porch into the hall was where the original exterior door used to be. What I had in mind is shown on the rough diagram below

As I assumed that the arch was the old door frame, I assumed that it still had the old threshold and closing strips wjich would need packing out to allow the new door to be fitted..

Sorry if I misunderstood the layout and, as I said originally, I know very little about such things.

Martin