Advice about windows

[Gemma]

Hi, we recently had wooden traditional casement windows made to replace our old windows and a new wooden door.
It has rained a fair bit since fitting and every time it rains, water accumulates under the windows. I would like to know whether this is expected of this design of window. Or, should there be a slope under the window to allow water to drain away?
Also, in terms of the door, there is a gap between the two halves and at points you can actually see air between the doors. Again, is this to be expected.
The people that made the windows have come back a couple of times but I’m not really sure if there’s anything else they can do as the design seems to be the issue....
thanks,
Gemma

 

[Trevanion]

Have you got any photos of the work?

Window frames should be sat on a slope of some kind, something like a slate or concrete cill to allow the water to run away from the window and the building.

You shouldn't be able to see through between the doors at all, which is quite concerning. Are you talking about a stable door or a french door?

 

[Gemma]

Hi, thanks for the reply. So, there is a photo of the inside of the door....there is a strip on the outside covering the main gap but it leaves gaps at the top and the bottom. Just wondering if that’s standard.
In terms of the window, not sure if you can see from the photo whether the way it’s made seems right....basically water pools underneath the window and doesn’t drain away so I’m concerned about how long the windows will last...
thanks

 

[Trevanion]

So, there is a photo of the inside of the door....there is a strip on the outside covering the main gap but it leaves gaps at the top and the bottom. Just wondering if that’s standard.

Well no, it isn't standard as you shouldn't be able to see outside unless you're looking through a pane of glass :lol:. Is there any chance of getting a photo of the edge of the doors whilst they're open? I'm curious about how they've gone about where the doors meet and why exactly there's a gap, it looks a little odd to my eye.

In terms of the window, not sure if you can see from the photo whether the way it’s made seems right....basically water pools underneath the window and doesn’t drain away so I’m concerned about how long the windows will last...

I can see exactly what they've done on the windows, they haven't bothered putting cill extensions on the frames so they wouldn't have to hack out and patch up the rendering each side to accommodate them. Subsequently, without the cill extension on the frame to throw the water further onto the concrete cill water will just run down the frame and straight underneath, and it will pool causing water-trapping and rot in a pretty short timeframe.

 

[Gemma]

OK thanks. Would the cill extenders be something standard window fitters should put in to avoid this happening then? Their latest suggestion was to drill drainage channels into the bottom part of the wood to allow water to drain away.
Here are some pics of the sides of the doors...

 

[Gemma]

Also, can I ask if you have a picture of what a casement window with cill extension would look like? Thanks

 

[RogerS]

Gemma ...is the water in the window outside or inside the house ?

 

[Trevanion]

OK thanks. Would the cill extenders be something standard window fitters should put in to avoid this happening then? Their latest suggestion was to drill drainage channels into the bottom part of the wood to allow water to drain away.

I always put on cill extensions unless there's a reason not to, they get grooved into the bottom part of the frame, fixed and glued in place and painted the same time as the frame. Traditionally, the cill itself would just be a wider section that protruded past the rest of the frame rather than attaching a secondary piece. You don't necessarily need it provided that the window is actually sat upon a sloped cill rather than too far into the building behind the slate/concrete cill. When you said that water was pooling under the window did you mean underneath the frame or in the opening between the casement itself and the bottom of the frame?

Here's a picture of a cill extension on a frame:

Here are some pics of the sides of the doors...

That's a little bit of an odd make-up but it should work, I reckon they've cut the seals too short in the length and they should be the full length of the opposing door, not to the top of the aluminium threshold. It probably doesn't help that it's been a bit warm and the doors have probably shrunk in the width slightly. Although the construction of the doors is a little bit concerning, there should be what's called a haunch underneath the bottom tenon on the stiles of the door which prevents the bottom joint of the door from fraying, splitting and opening up, it almost looks like the door should've been two or three inches longer on the bottom but they've cut it back for some reason :-k The tenons themselves are also monstrously thick for that thickness of door, but it shouldn't really affect anything.

 

[Gemma]

Thank you, that’s really helpful.... the water is pooling between the casement and the bottom of the frame....

 

[ColeyS1]

That would mildly concern me that the two part tenon is hanging out of the bottom of the side piece of wood

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[Trevanion]

Thank you, that’s really helpful.... the water is pooling between the casement and the bottom of the frame....

Ah, the cill extension isn't the problem then! They've probably made a window frame without a 9-degree slope to the bottom part of the rebate of the frame, correct? I'd also have a guess that the perimeter of the casement also doesn't have a capillary groove run around it to help stop water from tracking in by capillary reaction. Without them, you've basically got a water trap where water can get in easily but cannot get back out. Drilling holes in the frame to mitigate this is proper bodge work, do not let them do that!

I'm glad Coley agrees with me on the bottom of the door :lol:

 

[Gemma]

Thank you both....just will be good to have something to say to them other than saying there’s a problem!
It doesn’t seem there’s a slope at all as the water just pools there....
how long do you think the windows will last if every time it rains the water stays there?
They’ve just said oh, they’ll last forever even with that!
They came recommended too but guess you just never know!
Thanks again....

 

[ColeyS1]

Bit of a hash up isnt it !? I wonder if they made it 40-50mm oversized and just hacked it off. Glad to see you still posting Trev [WINKING FACE][THUMBS UP SIGN]

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[Gemma]

Thought I’d send one more photo to show the inside of the frame as wasn’t quite sure about what a capillary channel would look like....

 

[Gemma]

Sorry, just one more question, is this fixable?

(Also, We has the same issue with water pooling under the door so they put a metal strip underneath. I think to do that, they had to chop some of the door off so that might explain the issue with the bottom of it.... )

 

[Trevanion]

There's definitely no slope there Gemma, but there is a little curved capillary groove in the frame on the uprights which is something at least. It is fixable but I reckon they'd probably tell you to fob off at this point even though the workmanship is definitely a bit questionable! Without a slope at the bottom of the frame all the water will simply just pool there until it evaporates or ends up somewhere where it shouldn't be, there's no telling quite how quickly something will rot but in what looks to be Sapele you'd probably get 5-10 years lifespan if it's constantly moist.

To be honest, I don't like to talk negatively about other people's work but it sounds a little bit of an inexperienced hash-up job if they've had to do that much modifying and not taking very basic joinery techniques into practice.

Glad to see you still posting Trev

I'm glad you're back, It was literally only today that I thought I hadn't seen you posting on here in a while! :lol:

 

[Doug71]

I could be wrong because I can't really tell from the photos but on the door cill it looks like they have used a macclex type cill but not put the front rubber seal on it.

https://www.lockstation.co.uk/exitex-ma ... pJEALw_wcB

 

[RogerS]

Isn't that bottom seal on the window cill a recipe for disaster and short-term life ? It's a groove. OK ..it has a seal in it but it won't take much for that water that pools there to seep down into that (probably unpainted) groove.

 

[Trevanion]

Isn't that bottom seal on the window cill a recipe for disaster and short-term life ? It's a groove. OK ..it has a seal in it but it won't take much for that water that pools there to seep down into that (probably unpainted) groove.

Yeah, it's a bit of an odd one, its almost like they have no idea of how water works or they're just ignoring the fundamentals of joinery :?

To be honest, you know what calibre of "craftsman" you're dealing with when they suggest drilling holes in the frame...

 

[HOJ]

Out of interest have they done a Building regs or a Fensa sign off?