2nd hand tenon saw - write off or salvageable?

[Cavaliercapitalchip]

Hi all - novice here so excuse the ignorance in advance. bought a tenon saw from eBay, I’ve managed to set the teeth and had a go at sharpening it but I’ve just noticed that it looks like there is a step down about 40mm from the toe, which then steps back up about 30mm later. Should I try and file the rest of the saw down to the lowest point and sharpen up all the teeth again or has some sort of major trauma happened here that will just result in me wasting time? On a bit of a budget so if I can spend time rectifying this I would rather do that unless you’re opinion is not to bother.

 

[Old.bodger]

The teeth need topping. This is done in stages with a flat file along the blade. Cut down a few strokes and then recut each tooth until you have a level blade.
Having the file inserted in a block of hardwood helps.

Good eyesight needed!

 

[deema]

Yes, in fact I’d file off all the teeth and start again, here’s a thread I did a number of years ago about how to restore a saw
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...ng-of-a-99p-saw-completed.98494/#post-1068749
Edit: just had a quick trip down memory Lane and opened up the thread, for some reason all the pictures seem to have been muddled up / same picture in all the locations with thumb nails at the bottom. Looks like a problem with the server / web site?

 

[Cavaliercapitalchip]

Thanks Deema, long and interesting article. I like the 8degree move vs the 3 angles to end up at 90 degree. I’ll try that.

Thank you!

QUOTE="deema, post: 1551355, member: 12872"]
Yes, in fact I’d file off all the teeth and start again, here’s a thread I did a number of years ago about how to restore a saw
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...ng-of-a-99p-saw-completed.98494/#post-1068749[/QUOTE]

 

[Jameshow]

I would go as far as Deena not being a confident ! I'd file down almost till the teeth gulleys are hardly showing then you have the marks to accurately file the new teeth.

 

[Ttrees]

I've been there and worse too at one stage, and that one saw that's still not right, but nearly so.
Hard spots in some plates complicate matters, and wreck the files also.
that's my excuse for it not being as good as it should be.

Thought I could just eyeball the teeth like I done with a panel saw with 9TPI.
Found out the hard way that I can't eyeball teeth this small, on something like 12 or 13TPI.
The answer i found was to get some masking tape and draw lines every half inch the length of the plate with a retractable pencil.
For me a lot simpler than printing out teeth from a computer.

A world away from giving perfect teeth a touch up in less than five minutes.

"Seems" to be some crowding on that saw, which will bite ya in the ar5e if teeth are not spaced well.
Are there any hard spots on the plate?

Hope you have a double extra slim or similar sized file for the job.
Not often I say need, but is a requirement for small teeth.
What's is it, around 10 or 11TPI?

I have a wee dovetail saw which I can't attempt to sharpen until I get some more,
and that plate has hard spots by the looks of it, age related I wonder, as it seems to be from 1850's, so will likely be better off with two.
Hopefully I can get some cheap, as duffing a Vallorbe or two would cost more than the saw was.

Andy Lovelock has a 2 hr bonanza if you look for the title "sharpening western saws"
Deema's post is good too.

Not seen anyone use what I said about masking tape and half inch lines,
but maybe I'm just a bit behind the times and should be able to print tooth profiles.
It might well be better for these smaller teeth.

Good luck
Tom

 

[clogs]

if u have sharp and it's working I'd b leaving it alone and over time as u resharpen it the teeth will level out....
bit like a hacksaw blade u tend to use the forward 1/3 and the middle.....
why make work....?
just sayin.....

 

[Ttrees]

if u have sharp and it's working I'd b leaving it alone and over time as u resharpen it the teeth will level out....
bit like a hacksaw blade u tend to use the forward 1/3 and the middle.....
why make work....?
just sayin.....

But then you have to look at it!
Having tried that saw I mentioned above, is naff to use, and likely would damage
the timber by being jumpy.
'Tis then when you can be properly irked by the look of it,
cuz ya know that it performs as well as it looks.

Though not totally disagreeing with you Clogs, as it might make sense to see if
performs well enough somewhere on the plate,
which might be get one by, should the file be obliterated, or the saw having hard spots
(I'm told this is not a frequent thing though, and it doesn't appear to have hard spots from the photos)

I'd say eyeballing smaller teeth is probably one of the most difficult/skillful things I've ever done, probably quadrupled when hard spots are present.
But sharpening a similar saw which has well cut teeth and nice plate like what the photos appear to show is the polar opposite.

Should one have access to more saws, then it is a weigh up between getting new files,
or getting another saw with good teeth, and giving a touch up with a dull file.
If chasing ones tail for whatever reason, then just find a suitable saw which only needs a sub 5min lick.

 

[deema]

It might be my eyes, but the saw has uneven teeth, cows and calves. That step will make it horrible to use and almost impossible in hardwood. Just file off all the teeth and recut them with a fresh edge of a saw file. Not a triangular file, a proper saw file that has 6 cutting edges.
Blunt files don’t cut and produce cows and calves.
Often people will have stoned, messed around with setting the teeth causing all sorts of problems that manifest themselves in a saw even in expert hands won’t cut true and wanders off.
If you follow the method on my thread you will get a good result, and have a nice saw to use.

 

[Beanwood]

Not a triangular file, a proper saw file that has 6 cutting edges.

Hi @deema , sorry - just dipping in here and haven't had time to read the whole thread(s) yet, so I hope I haven't missed it, but do you have a link to a six cutting edge file please - I don't quite understand the concept.
I have just acquired a well worn tenon saw, and can only imagine I'm going to need a good file as a minimum...

 

[Recky33]

Saw files have cutting edges on the pointy ends, standard triangular files don't, so can't cut down into a triangular shape

https://www.axminstertools.com/vallorbe-swiss-saw-files-ax22603

 

[clogs]

or do the best u can with it, have a little fun and move it on.....
buying another in better condition......
I dont own one at all, I just have one of those japanese tiny pull saws.....
dif kettle o fish I supose....

 

[Beanwood]

Saw files have cutting edges on the pointy ends, standard triangular files don't

Aha - thank you - so it's still actually triangular - that's what was confusing my poor little brain.

 

[TominDales]

Aha - thank you - so it's still actually triangular - that's what was confusing my poor little brain.

Hi Beanwood, Its a bit subtle, its actually 6 sided with 3 large sides and 3 very small ones, its looks triangular because these small sides arnt immediately visible, but on close up they are there. when sharpening 3 of the six sides are in contact with the saw, the two large sides work on the teeth face, whilst the and the in between side (the small one), cuts down into the gullet deepening the tooth.
A triangle file wont do this. Its worth investing in a good quality file, it makes all the difference. A file will last about 6 complete saws before getting blunt. It will last for loads of e-sharpening good saws.

 

[TominDales]

here’s a thread I did a number of years ago about how to restore a saw
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...ng-of-a-99p-saw-completed.98494/#post-1068749

This is excellent, really good article, thanks, really imforative. There are videos by Sellers et all on sharpening which add in the time elements.

Quote: .Yes, in fact I’d file off all the teeth and start again,'

I'd push back a little on this recommendation for a beginner. I didn't have the confidence to file right down and set up from scratch, too many things to go wrong or me just not being confident enough.
I've found that by creeping up on the saw in stages you can make improvements, by this I mean filling down the teeth a bit and then sharpening and then repeating until all the teeth are the same height. between each go I try the saw to see how it cuts. To start with it doesn't always get much better, but then as its comes into shape you notice how much fast and cleaner it cuts. Also I've found that you can re-shape the odd bad patch if its not too many teeth at once. This way you can make mistakes and learn to correct them and perfect your technique without having to do it all right first time. There are a few things to learn, such as giving every tooth a full stroke of the file, keeping the angle constant etc. Once you have mastered it, then move on to a more drastic file-off.

I don't disagree at all with what Deema says, its absolutely correct, just a bit advanced for a beginner (for me at least).

I hadnt realised some people file the sides of the teeth, new-one for me. Iv'e seen saws set by tapping with a hammer, but not the filing....

 

[deema]

@TominDales
It’s not filing, it’s stoning. They run a stone down the side of the teeth if it’s pulling to one side. Nightmare, all it does is reduce the width of the teeth, make them dull faster pull to the side again quickly to name but one of the reasons not to do it.
When I put up the thread, I had a few come back with the concern about scrubbing off the teeth by beginners, I offered at that time to resharpen any saw they messed up. Nobody needed to take me up on it.