........
- Thread starter Claymore
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
memzey
Established Member
Hi Brian,
I've never used a biscuit router cutter so I can't offer any advice on that, however I do have a biscuit jointer and as a single purpose tool it fulfills its purpose extremely well. I would think taking the machine to the piece would require less physical effort than hefting 4' x 5/8" stock around as well. My particular machine is a Lamello which is one of the pricier options so also can't comment on budget versions of the tool but if you can stretch to one and think you are likely to use it enough to warrant the cost, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
I've never used a biscuit router cutter so I can't offer any advice on that, however I do have a biscuit jointer and as a single purpose tool it fulfills its purpose extremely well. I would think taking the machine to the piece would require less physical effort than hefting 4' x 5/8" stock around as well. My particular machine is a Lamello which is one of the pricier options so also can't comment on budget versions of the tool but if you can stretch to one and think you are likely to use it enough to warrant the cost, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Brian
I have used both and prefer the ease of use of the biscuit machine, as above manoeuvring the machine is easier than moving the workpiece, if you are going to start looking for one, get one that has a fence that will go over 90degs and if possible cast rather than tin, when you start looking you will know what I mean, I have a Porta Cable one, but its 110volt so not ideal, but I have other 110volt machines as well so not so much of an incumbrance, the Porta Cable is a very nice machine, very accurate and seems to always return to its settings without any problem, I also have a Silverline jointer and it works, but is far less accurate in its settings, the difference between them is about £300.00 so you can't expect much from the Silverline even though its very cheap, its still a safe unit, you will need to check that you can get a biscuit into the middle of a 15mm board, you may have to hang the board over an edge to get the blade into the middle as the base of the jointer almost definitely will be greater than 7.5mm to the blade so can't be held on the table.
Mike
I have used both and prefer the ease of use of the biscuit machine, as above manoeuvring the machine is easier than moving the workpiece, if you are going to start looking for one, get one that has a fence that will go over 90degs and if possible cast rather than tin, when you start looking you will know what I mean, I have a Porta Cable one, but its 110volt so not ideal, but I have other 110volt machines as well so not so much of an incumbrance, the Porta Cable is a very nice machine, very accurate and seems to always return to its settings without any problem, I also have a Silverline jointer and it works, but is far less accurate in its settings, the difference between them is about £300.00 so you can't expect much from the Silverline even though its very cheap, its still a safe unit, you will need to check that you can get a biscuit into the middle of a 15mm board, you may have to hang the board over an edge to get the blade into the middle as the base of the jointer almost definitely will be greater than 7.5mm to the blade so can't be held on the table.
Mike
Hemsby
Established Member
I bought a Silverline jointer machine back in 2015 (£45) have used it several times although not a “quality” machine apart from being a bit noisy it does the job with no problems. Also have used a Trend biscuit joint cutter in my router table which also works well.
The jointer machine is not particularly light but then moving the timber on and off a router table may not suit you either.
If possible try to borrow a jointer machine to get the “feel” of it before you buy
The jointer machine is not particularly light but then moving the timber on and off a router table may not suit you either.
If possible try to borrow a jointer machine to get the “feel” of it before you buy
Assuming you are having a problem holding the plank steady while feeding it into the cutter...
Just clamp a stop block to the right hand fence, put the far end against that just like using a starting pin, and then slowly slide (pivot) the piece into the cutter. The cutter will try to move the wood to the right but the stop block will do exactly whats in supposed to do.
As long as the cutter is not striking the end of the wood it will go in very smoothly.
Just clamp a stop block to the right hand fence, put the far end against that just like using a starting pin, and then slowly slide (pivot) the piece into the cutter. The cutter will try to move the wood to the right but the stop block will do exactly whats in supposed to do.
As long as the cutter is not striking the end of the wood it will go in very smoothly.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
You could get an arbor and a slot cutter - then you've a useful head start for other cutters as well.
Eric The Viking
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 6,599
- Reaction score
- 76
I am with the majority: a biscuit jointer is the way to go, if you can get access to one. They are not equivalents for each other, and the router table cutter is far less useful, and crucially, the joints it makes will be weaker**.
With the router table, you'd be relying on your handling of heavy stock for accuracy, and even if you move the stock correctly, the joint will still be loose at the ends of the slots. This is because the biscuit system expects a cutter of much greater diameter to be used*, and the router cutters is too small to match the curve on biscuits (all bar the very smallest ones): so you have to make an elongated slot with rounded corners, and fit in a biscuit that is a segment of a circle. There are big gaps at the ends of the biscuits, and biscuit joints made on a router table rely a lot more on the glue's physical strength when it's set.
The other thing that spoils my day every time I've tried the router table thing, is the difficulty of keeping the stock absolutely flat when moving it during the actual cut. Any bump up or down, or tilting, or the cutter not being dead parallel to the table, will make the slot wider and the joint looser. So your workpiece has to be dead flat underneath, for the width of the router table plus a small bit, or you run it on a sled, such as a piece of hardboard, shiny side down. I know this is an issue, I've tried really hard to do it right, but I still end up with a loose fit.
And finally, the table system has big limitations in where you put your biscuits. Your slot has to be parallel to the table, obviously, but the offset for pairs of slots (or staggering them) is limited by how high you can lift the cutter. You cannot, for example, use biscuits to fit shelves to a carcase, as you cannot cut the slots in the carcase sides, only those in the ends of the shelves.
There's no such limit with a jointer. You can pack underneath it with spacer blocks of wood, or reference off the top face instead (with most designs). You can use it vertically (e.g. for those carcase sides for shelves), but mostly you slide it on your worktable. But you're always bringing the tool to the workpiece, and the reference part doesn't actually move when it's cutting the slot (or shouldn't). Its cutter matches the biscuits much better (although it depends on the biscuit size you use, obviously). You can even cut grooves and rebates with a biscuit jointer, and people have also used them for door trimming, I believe.
E.
*The biscuit system was invented by the chap who founded Lamello, although he must have been heavily influenced by the use of loose-tongues of plywood to edge-join boards, popular from the 1930s onwards. But I think his first jointers were based on small angle grinders. Even today, you'll find very similar gearboxes and motor units, the only difference being the pistons, blade guards and fence arrangements. The better ones do have a smaller motor though, which makes them a bit quieter and easier to handle (examples being the DeWalt ones, and my Makita). When buying for the long-term, I'd say a smooth tight sliding action is the most important thing (no slop), and DX probably second, but then I've only ever owned a whole one!
**When joining boards sideways to make table tops, etc, the strength really comes from the right glue and how well the two sides of the joint meet together and are cramped up. Traditionally tabletops have been made with no dowels nor tenons at all. The biscuits are helpful for alignment, and I'm not sure how much strength they actually add to the joint. Technically it is loose-tenon joinery, and I've never known a biscuit to fail, but when you disassemble mass-produced furniture from the 1960s and 1970s, it's rare to find biscuits anywhere - it's usually dowels or machine cut M+T of some sort,
With the router table, you'd be relying on your handling of heavy stock for accuracy, and even if you move the stock correctly, the joint will still be loose at the ends of the slots. This is because the biscuit system expects a cutter of much greater diameter to be used*, and the router cutters is too small to match the curve on biscuits (all bar the very smallest ones): so you have to make an elongated slot with rounded corners, and fit in a biscuit that is a segment of a circle. There are big gaps at the ends of the biscuits, and biscuit joints made on a router table rely a lot more on the glue's physical strength when it's set.
The other thing that spoils my day every time I've tried the router table thing, is the difficulty of keeping the stock absolutely flat when moving it during the actual cut. Any bump up or down, or tilting, or the cutter not being dead parallel to the table, will make the slot wider and the joint looser. So your workpiece has to be dead flat underneath, for the width of the router table plus a small bit, or you run it on a sled, such as a piece of hardboard, shiny side down. I know this is an issue, I've tried really hard to do it right, but I still end up with a loose fit.
And finally, the table system has big limitations in where you put your biscuits. Your slot has to be parallel to the table, obviously, but the offset for pairs of slots (or staggering them) is limited by how high you can lift the cutter. You cannot, for example, use biscuits to fit shelves to a carcase, as you cannot cut the slots in the carcase sides, only those in the ends of the shelves.
There's no such limit with a jointer. You can pack underneath it with spacer blocks of wood, or reference off the top face instead (with most designs). You can use it vertically (e.g. for those carcase sides for shelves), but mostly you slide it on your worktable. But you're always bringing the tool to the workpiece, and the reference part doesn't actually move when it's cutting the slot (or shouldn't). Its cutter matches the biscuits much better (although it depends on the biscuit size you use, obviously). You can even cut grooves and rebates with a biscuit jointer, and people have also used them for door trimming, I believe.
E.
*The biscuit system was invented by the chap who founded Lamello, although he must have been heavily influenced by the use of loose-tongues of plywood to edge-join boards, popular from the 1930s onwards. But I think his first jointers were based on small angle grinders. Even today, you'll find very similar gearboxes and motor units, the only difference being the pistons, blade guards and fence arrangements. The better ones do have a smaller motor though, which makes them a bit quieter and easier to handle (examples being the DeWalt ones, and my Makita). When buying for the long-term, I'd say a smooth tight sliding action is the most important thing (no slop), and DX probably second, but then I've only ever owned a whole one!
**When joining boards sideways to make table tops, etc, the strength really comes from the right glue and how well the two sides of the joint meet together and are cramped up. Traditionally tabletops have been made with no dowels nor tenons at all. The biscuits are helpful for alignment, and I'm not sure how much strength they actually add to the joint. Technically it is loose-tenon joinery, and I've never known a biscuit to fail, but when you disassemble mass-produced furniture from the 1960s and 1970s, it's rare to find biscuits anywhere - it's usually dowels or machine cut M+T of some sort,
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
With the router table, you'd be relying on your handling of heavy stock for accuracy ...
You could of course use the cutter in a router. You are right, of course, Eric - biscuits are primarily for alignment but as they add little strength I don't suppose you lose much if they don't fit particularly well. The choice much depends on the usage, or it did with mine - I didn't have a biscuit jointer before I had a job large enough to justify one. I and probably many others got by perfectly well using a cutter in a router (rather than a table).
You could of course use the cutter in a router. You are right, of course, Eric - biscuits are primarily for alignment but as they add little strength I don't suppose you lose much if they don't fit particularly well. The choice much depends on the usage, or it did with mine - I didn't have a biscuit jointer before I had a job large enough to justify one. I and probably many others got by perfectly well using a cutter in a router (rather than a table).
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
Like you, the router table method scared the hell out of me.
I bought a aldi/lidl machine a few years back.
I only use it for joining boards and "bread boarding".
It works fine.
Its a bit of a screamer though.
I bought a aldi/lidl machine a few years back.
I only use it for joining boards and "bread boarding".
It works fine.
Its a bit of a screamer though.
Not with you on that one Eric, Biscuit Blades are available for routers, or buy a Biscuit blade and put it on an arbour, but no matter I am with you and everyone else that a biscuit jointer is the way to go, one tip is make sure the jointer is at full speed before plunging into the work piece or it will snatch excessively sideways, on the strength or lack of strength of biscuits, IMO once the biscuit has expanded due to the wetting out with glue I think some strength is given to the joint, not as strong as a Domino admittedly, but still more strength than if the biscuit was not there.
Mike
EDIT to add link: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-bi ... GwodXe8N0g
Mike
EDIT to add link: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-bi ... GwodXe8N0g
Eric The Viking
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 6,599
- Reaction score
- 76
MikeJhn":1i8vv1q0 said:
Sorry - which part?
I've got two biscuit joint cutters for routers - an expensive Trend kit, and a cheap one with only a single bearing (Erbauer?) that came with a router I bought s/h. Neither are very satisfactory for biscuiting, although they can be used as slot-cutters, and similar and work for that quite nicely (with some obvious limitations).
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I think that there is a perfectly valid third option - put a biscuit cutter with a 1/4" shank in a small handheld router and bring the tool to the work. This is what I do most of the time and I find it works very well for me. I have at times (usually while reading tool catalogues in an, ahem, seated posture) toyed with the idea of buying a dedicated biscuit jointer, but I've genuinely not seen the need for it. I use biscuits a lot. Cheers, W2S
Here's the set I use - cheap and cheerful, but it works just fine: http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-biscu ... -pcs/65290
Here's the set I use - cheap and cheerful, but it works just fine: http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-biscu ... -pcs/65290
Eric The Viking
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 6,599
- Reaction score
- 76
I assume that is some sort of heavy duty arbour system. If it matches the blade in a jointer it'll be the biggest cutter I've ever seen, panel raisers included. And it can't be a cheap option either. I'll measure the two I have...
monkeybiter
Established Member
Claymore: I have a biscuit jointer and a biscuit slot cutter for the router, but for what you've described I don't think you need either, if you can align two edges at a time just butt joint them with glue and clamps, it should be plenty strong enough.
If alignment may be troublesome you could clamp [g clamps?] some small offcuts to the first board overhanging the edge to be glued so that when the second board is offered up it can't glide sideways on the glue.
Make sure your Beech is well acclimatised as I've seen plenty of warnings that it likes to move.
If alignment may be troublesome you could clamp [g clamps?] some small offcuts to the first board overhanging the edge to be glued so that when the second board is offered up it can't glide sideways on the glue.
Make sure your Beech is well acclimatised as I've seen plenty of warnings that it likes to move.
transatlantic
Boom!
Claymore":2zvhrq3q said:
If it broke perfectly on the glue line, with no damage to the edges, then that sounds like a joint that didn't adhere properly. In any case, pretty sure biscuits wouldn't help with what you're suggesting. You'd need something stronger, like dowels or another form of loose tenon
Woody2Shoes":rula8gv8 said:
Claymore cites the problem he has because of reduced hand grip due to medical conditions. having a similar but luckily milder problem myself I empathise with him. A hand held router (when your hands no longer grip) is a very scary thing indeed.
powertools
Established Member
You are far more skilled with the scroll saw than i will ever be but the problem i see is that with the items you make by joining your wood with biscuits you will end up cutting into them thus spoling your work. I would just butt joint the wood with glue.
Similar threads
