Wadkin and Startrite advice please

[misterfish]

Hi to everybody.

I'm in the process of setting up my workshop - I blame Norm for rekindling my interest in woodworking - it's many years since I left school and last dabbled!

Anyway, my first enquiry is about table saws. I initially purchased a small Delta (36-525 I think) but was not impressed and after about a year sold this and recently acquired a Wadkin Bursgreen 10BRT table saw. As the serial number begins with 79 I assume it was made in 1979. Now for my questions - does anybody else have any info on this model? It seems to be very similar to a 10AGS but has everything in metric 20mm arbor, 20mm mitre slot, rip fence scale in metric and it will take up to a 300mm blade. It's single phase and also has a sliding table arrangement to the left but with no mitre ability to cut angles, just straight through cuts (like a big panel cutter). Secondly, it has three parallel drive belts, how tight or loose should these be? I have no manual with the saw but have downloaded the 4 page operating instructions and parts list for the 10AGS but this gives no real details - does the AGS manual that Scott and Sargeant sell for £20 give lots more useful info or is it just the 4 pages?

Now for my second subject. I also acquired a Startrite 352 bandsaw, again with no manual. Has anybody any useful info on this or any details of the (again) £20 manual that Scott and Sargeant sell? The bandsaw seems to work nicely and is again single phase despite the data plate saying it is 415 volts 3 phase!

Once I get my workshop set up I'll post a few pictures for you all to see. I was expecting to do this over the next 3 or 4 years but was lucky to be offered early retirement on exceptionally good terms so SWMBO now has the pleasure of my company throughout the day!

Thanks in advance for any info or advice you can offer

Cheers

MisterFish

 

[Scott]

Hi MF

Welcome to the forum! I'm afraid I can't help you but I'm sure Scrit will be along shortly!

Cheers

 

[DaveL]

Hi MisterFish,

Welcome to the forum.

Always good to have another Wadkin owner join up. 8) I have a 10AGS that I had to convert from 3 to single phase.
Take a look hereat my Wadkin.
I don't know what the official line is with the belts but I just set them up with 1/4" of movement in middle of the run and they don't appear the slip, even when cutting 3" ash.

Scrit has a wide knowledge of these machines, having used many different ones in the trade.

A word of warning, there is a cast iron Slope TM just like the hand tool one and I find myself looking at second hand planers and thicknessers and wondering if I could sell the aluminium tabled planer/thicknesser. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Scrit]

Hello and welcome to the forum

......recently acquired a Wadkin Bursgreen 10BRT table saw. As the serial number begins with 79 I assume it was made in 1979. Now for my questions - does anybody else have any info on this model? It seems to be very similar to a 10AGS but has everything in metric 20mm arbor, 20mm mitre slot, rip fence scale in metric and it will take up to a 300mm blade. It's single phase and also has a sliding table arrangement to the left but with no mitre ability to cut angles, just straight through cuts (like a big panel cutter).

Firstly, Wadkin serial numbers and test numbers bear no real relationship to the date of manufacture. The Bursgreen saws were always models AGS, AGSP, BGS, BGP, BGPS as far as I am aware - and came with Imperial size arbors until the 1990s. Furthermore you might well get a 300mm blade on it, but the designation "10" indicates that the factory rated it as a 10inch machine only - does it have a 12in riving knife? (All Wadkin table saws acquired riving knives in their design in the late 1950s/early 1960s). Without seeing a photo I suspect that what you have could well be one of the Brazilian-made saws sold under the Wadkin Agencies/Wadkin Bursgreen banners in the 1970s and early 1980s, especially as it is single phase, and Wadkin made relatively few single phase machines. That also means that an AGS manual will be of little or no use to you as you have a very different machine.

Now for my second subject. I also acquired a Startrite 352 bandsaw, again with no manual. Has anybody any useful info on this or any details of the (again) £20 manual that Scott and Sargeant sell? The bandsaw seems to work nicely and is again single phase despite the data plate saying it is 415 volts 3 phase!

Well at least you're in luck there. I, and several others on here, have the 352. I may even have a manual for mine, although to be frank it's a waste of £20 as the 352 is a really simple machine to set-up.

Scrit

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Misterfish

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil

 

[misterfish]

Thanks for all the welcomes and info.

I've just nipped over to the workshop to look at the Wadkin and take some piccies. The riving knife and blade guard (not currently fitted) are of no help as the label attached says for 10AGS or 12AGS. There is more than enough adjustment for either size blade, though the curve of the knife conforms to the 250mm diameter.

When I obtained both the Wadkin and Startrite saws I was told that they had been used in schools.

I have tried to link to the pictures of the table saw that i just published on my website, but am not sure that the links will work. Anyway, the URL is

http://www.drosera.f2s.com/workshop1.htm

where you can see a few pictures showing the construction of the workshop and now also the TS. When I'm sorted I'll add a few pictures of the completed structure and contents.

The 'cast iron slope' I feel is already putting pressure on me and I am also keeping my eyes open for a decent planer/thicknesser to replace my current Record machine (actually made by Lurem) - yes it has aluminium planer tables and only a cast iron thicknesser bed.

So maybe the pictures of the Wadkin may help others to throw any light on the machine. The thing is I can find no other references to 'BRT' machines. It doesn't actually specify where or when manufactured. :?

A final quick question. On the downloaded Wadkin (10AGS) info that I have it says to lubricate with L4 or equivalent oil. Is this like ordinary 3 in 1 or should I use something like a PTFE spray as some of its slidey/turney bits need lubricating.

Thanks once again.

MisterFish

 

[Scott]

Nice looking workshop MF! Very clean!

 

[DaveL]

A final quick question. On the downloaded Wadkin (10AGS) info that I have it says to lubricate with L4 or equivalent oil. Is this like ordinary 3 in 1 or should I use something like a PTFE spray as some of its slidey/turney bits need lubricating.

I use GT85 not oil as it is less sticky and does not collect saw dust in quite the same way.

I doubt that its was around when the Wadkin leaflet was written.

 

[misterfish]

Thank you Dave. I just got a 1 litre hand pumped squirty bottle of GT85 (I don't like aerosols on ecological grounds and will avoid them if I can) and now everything moves and slides as it should - even the handles don't squeak!

It's reassuring to know that there are fellow woodworkers out there with a wealth of knowledge that they are willing to share so freely. =D>

Misterfish

 

[DaveL]

Misterfish,

That is a stock photo from the GT85 site. I have had my aerosol about 7 or 8 years, I don't think the pump version as around then. I would buy the pump out of choice now myself.

 

[wrightclan]

Thank you Dave. I just got a 1 litre hand pumped squirty bottle of GT85 (I don't like aerosols on ecological grounds and will avoid them if I can) and now everything moves and slides as it should - even the handles don't squeak!

It's reassuring to know that there are fellow woodworkers out there with a wealth of knowledge that they are willing to share so freely. =D>

Misterfish

I thought CFC's were the concern in aerosols, and that CFC's as propellant were done away with several years ago?

Brad

 

[Scrit]

I've had a chat with a friend who used to work for Wadkin about the BRT. He tells me that they were manufactured in the 1950s and 1970s and always (to his knowledge) had the sliding table, whereas the AGS did not. The rip fence and handles are later (mid-1970s onwatds) versions, as is the badge, whilst the machine number points to an early/mid 1970s machine and the MEM switch box is an earlier type box (they went to greay square plastic switch gear boxes in the larte 1970s. Perhaps Dalton's in Nottingham (who still exist) would be abl; to give you chapter and verse on the machine.

Wadkin re-engineered the AGS range of saws in 1980 or thereabouts and the designs all became much boxier. At that time they rationalised they small saw range and dropped the AGS-derived BGS and BGP in favour of the AGSP and SP12. They still made three sizes of AGS saws (10, 12 and 14in with an option of a sliding table - although late AGS10s are probably rarer than hens teeth).

Either way it's not a Brazilian one - it's a proper Houghton-le-Spring, Durham (Bursgreen) saw

Scrit

 

[misterfish]

Scrit. Many thanks for the details of the saw - it's reassuring to find out that it is good (old) British engineering

wrightclan. Yes it's partly the CFCs that they used to use, but also an aerosol contains propellant as well as the stuff you want to spray and I'd rather have the container filled with the stuff to spray rather than part propellant and part stuff. Also the hand pump isn't under pressure so less potential problem from that perspective.

So thanks again guys

Misterfish

 

[Toeless]

Dear Dave,

I have purchased an identical beast via ebay aswell and I too need to convert to 1ph.

Please could you let me know where you got your motor and starter from as after trawling the forum that info seems to be missing!?! or was it Axminster?

Also - it came without fence or sliding table and am now at a point where I'm a bit deperate for the fence and the ST would be a great help - any ideas?

Thanks for your time,
Regards, Toeless.

 

[DaveL]

Hi Toeless,

Welcome to the forum.

So have you bought an AGS or a BRT?

I have an AGS, no sliding table while Misterfish has the BRT with the slider.

I bought the motor from a company in Ipswich, only 20 miles up the road for me, I found them by doing a local search, I wanted to check sizes before I bought it and the chap was very helpful, even opened the box to measure it for me. It cost the same as buying from Axminster or Machine Mart. I got the starter from Tool Station as they at the time were much cheaper (for the same spec) than anywhere else I could find.

As for sourcing a fence, I don't think I can help. I have seen one on Ebay, some time ago. Maybe Scrit knows somewhere that has this sort of thing for sale. My AGS only has one table extension on it, if you stumble on another one let me know I would like to get a second one. :roll:

 

[9fingers]

Dear Dave,

I have purchased an identical beast via ebay aswell and I too need to convert to 1ph.

Hi Toeless,

Welcome to the forum.

Rather than convert to single phase, had you considered using an inverter to create 3 phase from your domestic mains supply. These things are readily available form ebay vendors and if you bide your time, come up quite cheaply.Say £40 for a 1hp unit.
you can usually programme these for a smooth start up and controlled slowdown/breaking as well as variable speed.

The important thing to check is that your motor says something like 240/440 volts on it.If it is 440v only then these inverters are not suitable.

regards

Bob

PS I see you have tried to go one better than me when choosing your username. LOL

 

[Scrit]

I have purchased an identical beast via ebay aswell and I too need to convert to 1ph.

Also - it came without fence or sliding table and am now at a point where I'm a bit deperate for the fence and the ST would be a great help - any ideas?

Hi Toeless

If it came without the sliding table, then it's NOT an identical beast. The BRT had a metric arbor (20mm I think), the earlier pattern AGS10 was 5/8in arbor whilst the earlier pattern AGS12 had a 1in arbor (neither of them metric). The BRT had no cast-iron table extension to the left of the main table, the AGS10 and AGS12 could be had with a sliding table attachment (called a Bursfold, amongst other things) as a factory-fitted extra but generally not available as a retrofit.

To convert a 3-phase machine to a single phase you will need a capacitor start motor the same size (HP) as the original PLUS a replacement DoL starter unit - the existing 3-phase unit will probably have too small an overload protection and may have a coil of the wrong voltage, so just replace then (£30 to £40). Motors and pulleys can be had from Machine Mart.

As to the fence you are going to struggle. Without a fence a saw such as this is worth relatively little - it is incomplete and long out of production so there is no off the shelf replacement. Wadkin can supply you with a replacement rip fence/bar assembly from the later AGS300/AGSP, but it will be a king's ransom. All I could suggest is to ring round the woodworking machinery dealers in your area and see if anyone has broken a saw and retained the fence - one actually did come up on eBay quite recently but the vendor didn't specify if it was for an AGS10, AGS12 or AGS14 - and they're all different.

Scrit

 

[dickm]

[snip]
To convert a 3-phase machine to a single phase you will need a capacitor start motor the same size (HP) as the original PLUS a replacement DoL starter unit - the existing 3-phase unit will probably have too small an overload protection and may have a coil of the wrong voltage, so just replace then (£30 to £40). Motors and pulleys can be had from Machine Mart.

[snip]

Scrit

Don't like to disagree with Scrit, but I thought it was generally recommended to go to a motor of higher nominal horsepower when converting from 3 phase to single phase? So if it's got a 1 hp motor 3 phase, go for 1.5 hp single phase. And are the Machine Mart motors OK for heavy use? I'd heard that alloy bodied motors were not OK for saws. May be better to look out for a secondhand Brook/ABB/GEC or similar. Our local motor rewind specialist is very helpful over finding/supplying good secondhand motors and advising on switchgear, so could be worth looking in yellow pages?

 

[Scrit]

I thought it was generally recommended to go to a motor of higher nominal horsepower when converting from 3 phase to single phase?

The problem about going up in motor HP is that you may then be trying to put a larger amount of power through the bearings than they were originally designed to take. If you increase the size of the motor you may then find that the motor frame is too big to fit the machine and you'll almost certainly have to replace every piece of wiring in that machine. If you can get it in and do the rewiring, then great, why not? But bigger motor = higher current = bigger cables. 1HP is 1HP regardless of whether or not it's single phase or three phase - but what you get with 3-phase is higher torque (particularly starting torque) and smoother running. Also, you won't find a single manufacturer of machinery who offers bigger single phase motors than three phase motors on a given size of machine. Take a look at Sedgwick for example. I'd say the main thing to avoid is going smaller as that can produce an underpowered, and possibly dangerous, machine. I'm juts being pragmatic here, that's all

And are the Machine Mart motors OK for heavy use? I'd heard that alloy bodied motors were not OK for saws.

For non-trade use I can't see it as a problem. Look inside a lot of far east machines and you'll find ally bodied motors, my latest power feeder (a Steff industrial feeder) has an ally motor body, and the RAS I'm currently rebuilding (a 20 year old deWalt 16in blade 4HP 3-phase industrial) has an ally motor (DW industrial RAS motors went over to ally frames about 30 years ago), as did my CNC router (7.5HP), as did my Sedgwick SM3 spindle moulder (built 2001), as does the Sedgwick single-end tenoner. The reason why is simple - 50 years ago they didn't have the technology to continuously extrude ally motor body section, now they do and it's MUCH cheaper than sand casting and post machining. Therefore bias against ally motor bodies is just that - bias - I feel it has no foundation in truth. There have always been cheap low quality motors around, ally or steel or iron.

May be better to look out for a secondhand Brook/ABB/GEC or similar.

Yes, they are better quality motors to be sure, but at about £300 plus list price a 1HP single-phase ABB ruddy well should be. The European motor manufacturers make motors designed for continuous industrial production - a far cry from a small trade or home workshop - and even there many of the motors made in the EU these days are ally bodied. Maybe one point to bear in mind is that second-hand industrial single-phase motors can be as rare as rocking horse doo-doo because industry uses predominently 3-phase. Not saying you can't find one, just saying they're not that common and that when you see one they're generally a lot more expensive - and secondhand rarely carries a warranty. A machine such as a saw doesn't start under load so it shouldn't need a particularly heavy-duty high starting torque motor such as those fitted to compressors. If I were going to buy 3 or more industrial machines then I'd shell out £500 to £700 on a reasonable single to three phase converter such as a Transwave and leave the machines as 3-phase. In fact that's just what I did for my shop back in the 1980s

Our local motor rewind specialist is very helpful over finding/supplying good secondhand motors and advising on switchgear, so could be worth looking in yellow pages?

True enough. It's all a matter of budget and intended end use IMHO

Scrit