Troubleshooting a (hand) panel saw

[HeathRobinson]

Just got myself a pair of LN panel saws for breaking down rough boards - they arrived from the USA 2 days ago and today was the first use on some yellow pine. The rip version is pretty good and I can now rip boards without breaking a sweat quite as soon as I used to using my el' cheapo hard point saw. Unfortunately the fine cross cut panel saw I got to go with the rip saw is giving me grey hairs. Thankfully I have only used it for rough cuts so far.

To make the problem clear imagine a board flat in front of you. You are cross cutting from the far side to your side. The cut becomes progressively more 'mitered' toward the end of the cut without any known influence from you. During the cut you noticed that you were pushing the saw into the kerf at right angles to the surface of the wood but underneath the wood the saw was deflecting badly to the right. This was not the case when you started the cut but it was very obviously deflected by the end of the cut.

I know I have read about the set of the saw having some influence over its tracking a straight kerf but can't remember the remedy and haven't the experience to say whether that is even relevent to this issue. The saw just has a marked tendency to try and twist around the intended cut line but is otherwise staying on axis. Any idea what's going on here?

 

[Trafalgar]

You're probably pressing the saw too much/too hard which is easy to do with a panel saw since they're so light.

As you come across you may need to step back a half step to give your arm more room to work. If your wrist is bowed outward on the hand that's holding the saw then you are standing too close and the cut will be angled to the face of the board in the last third of the cut. Try giving yourself more room and letting the saw do practically all the work. Hold the handle lightly and just move the saw pressing very lightly, just enough to keep it cutting.

 

[Jacob]

Practice practice!
Waste a bit of scrap wood - mark it up all round at 6mm intervals and saw it up into a series of dominos.

The problem is that if it goes off a bit when your attention slips, it'll go off further with the next cut and become beyond correction. Hence Cs advice above to let the saw do the work and hold it lightly.

 

[bugbear]

To make the problem clear imagine a board flat in front of you. You are cross cutting from the far side to your side. The cut becomes progressively more 'mitered' toward the end of the cut without any known influence from you. During the cut you noticed that you were pushing the saw into the kerf at right angles to the surface of the wood but underneath the wood the saw was deflecting badly to the right. This was not the case when you started the cut but it was very obviously deflected by the end of the cut.

Unless the saw is managing to turn a corner at the top surface of the board (so the bit you can see is vertical, but the bit in the board is angled), that doesn't sound possible. Try checking the saw's actual angle with a square half way across a cut on a test piece.

BugBear

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

for me....off straight kerfs were always because I wasn't tucking my elbow in close enough to my body. That seemed to throw the straight off. Shuffle of the feet coupled with closing of gap between elbow and body usually sorted it.

One tip that worked for me to know what the muscle memory felt like was to clamp a small batten along the cut line. I then kept the blade of the saw just touching this batten which meant it couldn't fail to cut in a straight line. After doing that a few times you get to feel how it should feel in terms of body and arm position.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A couple of things that might help. First, a firm, but relaxed stance. It helps to have the workpiece at the height at which you can hold it down to the sawhorse with one knee, brace your other knee against it, and grip the other (cut start) side with your off hand - make a tripod of yourself. Second, head over the line of cut, and held still, and body positioned so that you can swing your arm freely through the whole cut. Thirdly, light grip on the saw handle, index finger pointing along the handle towards the toe end of the saw. Fourth, saw slowly - you've more control going steadily than if you're banging away like a fiddler playing the William Tell Overture - try for about one stroke per second. Don't put any downward pressure on the saw, just move it up and down and let it's own weight do the cutting.

Relaxed, firm, tripod stance, head still, eye directly over the cut, cut slowly, and don't force the saw.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

My reply is vastly different and is suggesting an issue with the saw.

Some background: I accumulate old tools, and I hate to see miter saws end on the junk heap, since they seem to be available always on the cheap, but mostly missing saws. Net effect is I have at least 16 old Millers Falls, Stanleys, etc, hanging on my shop wall. I have a MF Langdon that is a regular user and it does a great job.

About a year and a half ago, for some unknown reason, I decided to have LN build me a new saw for the old Langdon (I like shiny new stuff and I'd rather buy tools - new or old, than drink or smoke my coins up). Saw arrived and it would not cut square - back to front and top to bottom. Put in the old saw and cuts were perfect. Suspected that maybe there was slight enough difference in plate thickness and handle hang to add variables, so I grabbled another miter box and the same bad cut resulted. Tried a vintage saw and the cut was good. Tried a different vintage saw and the cut was good. Grabbed a vintage Stanley miter box, and the same bad cut resulted. Cut a piece of stock with my knee anchoring it to my saw bench and the cut veered off square and acted like there was too much set on one side. Though I can do a workman's job on sharpening rip panel and crosscut to about 9 pt., when it comes to finer teeth, I don't monkey with them!

So, I called LN and they had me return the saw. Several weeks later, it came back and cut beautifully. It seems the OP must has had the same apprentice do his panel saw that did my miter saw!

 

[HeathRobinson]

Yesterday we had a BBQ so I used the opportunity to cross cut a piece of scrap into fuel for the fire and to check my sawing chops. I alternated between my old hard point (a short 15 tpi axcalibur brand thing) and my LN cross cut (12 ppi). Every single time I got a perpendicular cut from the hard point and I got a progressively increasing miter from the LN. So, while I am still open to the idea that I am at fault and will read and digest the earliest replies carefully, I must say I am leaning towards Tony's opinion on this one.

I'm in the UK so feel as though sending the saw back to LN should be a last resort at this point hence I am carefully trying to ascertain whether it is in fact the saw, or me, before making any decisions.

 

[HeathRobinson]

Right, I've tried again this morning and this time photographed the results. I am right handed so cuts are made on the right of the piece but I made sure to keep the same face uppermost which I've labelled top. It looks like I went off my marked line on the Axminster cut but that isn't the case. The line that remains is actually a line I marked incorrectly out of square before correcting. The axminster saw cut to the line on all 4 sides whereas you can see that the LN gets a good entry and follows the marked line on the top of the cut but underneath is tracking terribly.

Are we still of the general opinion that the sawyer is at fault or can we start to entertain the notion that maybe the LN saw is at fault?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

If you get good results with the hardpoint, but the LN veers off cut when you use the same stance and techniques on the same workpiece material, then it does seem that the LN is at fault. Another symptom of problems would be the saw tending to bind more and more in the cut as it deepens.

Firstly, check the sawblade for straightness. Don't just rely on eyeballing, use a wooden straightedge. Hold the saw vertically, handle uppermost, so that the blade doesn't bend under gravity acting on it's own weight, and have a good light source behind the saw - a window will do nicely. Check all along the length, at the toothline, near the middle and near the back, and check across the width of the saw at various places along it's length (keep the straightedge a tad in from the toothline when checking across, to avoid any spurious readings as the straightedge lies on a set tooth).

If the blade proves to be straight, suspicion must fall on the evenness of set between one side and the other. That's difficult to measure, and harder to correct.

Either fault in blade straightness or in set are matters for LN, I'd suggest. Taking into account what Tony was saying about his mitre saw, LN need to know anyway, to identify and eliminate the problem that may have crept into their manufacturing.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

In my case, LN never said what the problem was, but that they had to re-sharpen the saw. Can't remember which American sawsmith commented on potential causes, including mis-shaped tooth profiles, poor setting, etc.

When I called LN, they said the saw was unconditionally guaranteed, even if I took a stone to the side of the saw lean (I did take a few strokes and it didn't help). One thing I didn't examine was the blade slot, top to bottom to see if it may have been mis-cut. I would call LN.

 

[HeathRobinson]

The blade of the LN does indeed bind more and more as I cut. I'll get hold of LN tomorrow to discuss but, if I can get hold of him, I might have a very experienced local fella double check my findings before I make any decisions.

 

[rwyoung]

The blade of the LN does indeed bind more and more as I cut. I'll get hold of LN tomorrow to discuss but, if I can get hold of him, I might have a very experienced local fella double check my findings before I make any decisions.

It has been my (limited) experience with the LN panel saws that their plates are thinner and more flexible than vintage saws. It has also been my experience with their fine tooth cross-cut saw that its gullets tend to fill and hold resinous sawdust like your pine. And for any saw, as soon as you fill up the gullets, the saw will stop cutting like it is supposed to.

My thoughts are that the combination of flexible plate, small teeth (gullets), soft wood and last but not least your stance and arm position particularly near the end of your cross cut are conspiring to let the teeth seek the path of least resistance which amounts do a slight bend in the plate. It may be that you simply need a bit more set (and maybe the set you have is favoring one side) if you plan to use the cross cut saw primarily in soft woods.

I'm sure the LN crew will do their best to help you. I think this past weekend was their Open House so you may find them a bit tired and lethargic on Monday because of too much lobster at Sunday's picnic...

 

[matthewwh]

Clamp the wood vertically in the vice so you are sawing down through a consistent thickness and try to make a series of parallel vertical cuts.

If you are getting consistent wander to one side, you have fractionally more set on that side, it may be only a couple of teeth.

Make a light - like stroking a baby's face light - pass with a fine diamond stone or similar, going with the teeth (heel to toe) down the side of the sawblade that the saw veers in and then repeat the test.

It will probably still veer but you will start to get a feel for how much effect that swipe with the stone had.

Take another stroke with the stone if necessary and repeat until the saw cuts plumb every time.

Differences between the test cuts without adjustment are down to technique. Differences between sets of cuts can be attributed to the tuning of the saw.

If the problem returns after tuning when you start working with the board flat, then you might look at whether you are overfeeding it, but my guess is that it's the saw that needs a little fine adjustment, not your sawing.

 

[Trafalgar]

Right, I've tried again this morning and this time photographed the results. I am right handed so cuts are made on the right of the piece but I made sure to keep the same face uppermost which I've labelled top. It looks like I went off my marked line on the Axminster cut but that isn't the case. The line that remains is actually a line I marked incorrectly out of square before correcting. The axminster saw cut to the line on all 4 sides whereas you can see that the LN gets a good entry and follows the marked line on the top of the cut but underneath is tracking terribly.

Are we still of the general opinion that the sawyer is at fault or can we start to entertain the notion that maybe the LN saw is at fault?

The saw is at fault. Send it back, get a refund of your money, keep the Axminster since it cuts as it should, and use the money to buy wood or another tool that you need.

 

[HeathRobinson]

Thanks for the continued advice guys. I've put the saw aside while I continue with my project and have not yet phoned LN because, as I said, posting the saw internationally for any reason is a last resort. Though I do strongly agree that it seems to have been a bit of a waste of money compared to the disposable. I have made contact with Rob Stoakley who lives near me and is IMHO an experienced woodworker. He has written for furniture and cabinetmaker, is the new 'voice of Axminster' running their blog, and used to be known as woodbloke around here so many of you will know him. He will take a look at the saw with me on Thursday and we'll go from there.