Grooves that don't go all the through-HOW???????

[LuptonM]

In the hand tool world, how might one achieve such a thing (ie for drawer bottoms)? Would be easy with a router but I'd rather not use it unless I had to.

 

[adidat]

see pics below, btw first time using ukw uploader

adidat

 

[adidat]

#-o pictures are in wrong order

adidat

Are you sure :lol: CHJ

 

[LuptonM]

Thanks for the visual guide.

 

[adidat]

no problemo

adidat

 

[AndyT]

Often, if your design needs a method which is difficult, you'll find that you need to change the design.

So, with trad hand made drawers for example, I can't think of circumstances where you would ever need a stopped groove.

Assuming that you are grooving at all, not using slips, then the grooves on the sides run all the way through, and the groove on the front is a through groove ending in a dovetail, so disappears when the sides go on. There is of course no groove in the back.

Similarly, grooves for panels are always ploughed all the way through on stiles and rails.

The only common requirement I can think of for stopped grooves in hand work is more properly called stopped housings (ie cross-grain, and wider than the depth). You would cut these as Adidat showed, by first morticing a space to work into, then sawing the sides and chiselling out the waste, finishing off with a router. (Ie a router plane, not a nast noisy whizzing thing.)

It's details like this that show the reasons why established details are the way they are. As Jacob often says the best guide for hand work methods is to look closely at old pieces of furniture and deduce how they were made.

 

[Alf]

What Andy sez. It's a bit of a hobby horse of mine, the tendency for folks to try and use hand tools to replicate power tool habits - published authors too, not just us lowly souls. Suffice to say, avoid them (The stopped grooves. But maybe also the authors... ).

 

[nanscombe]

Makes you wonder how woodworkers managed to produce things, like stopped grooves, before power tools were invented, doesn't it?

Maybe they were just more inventive and / or less lazy.

 

[adidat]

Makes you wonder how woodworkers managed to produce things, like stopped grooves, before power tools were invented, doesn't it?

Maybe they were just more inventive and / or less lazy.

nanscombe see my first post

adidat

 

[nanscombe]

Makes you wonder how woodworkers managed to produce things, like stopped grooves, before power tools were invented, doesn't it?

Maybe they were just more inventive and / or less lazy.

nanscombe see my first post

adidat

I did. My post was a bit of sarcasm aimed at Alf's post above mine.

It's a bit of a hobby horse of mine, the tendency for folks to try and use hand tools to replicate power tool habits ...

 

[Alf]

Nigel, adidat's post explains how to do it. Andy's explains why you need to do it, or rather don't. The incredible rarity of bullnose ploughs on the used market suggest our industrious and inventive forebears who understood the benefit of efficiency in hand tool use didn't find much call for stopped grooves either. I think your sarcasm is, perhaps, misplaced, and you don't get it either. No worries; you're not alone.

 

[nanscombe]

Ok.

I just saw your comment about hand toolers trying to replicate power tool habits as a little sarcastic.

I'm sorry if you meant it as tongue in cheek.

I'm no expert at hand tools, let alone power tools but I think it's nice to see things being done by people with power tools but I also like to know how I could achieve similar results using only hand tools.


I must admit that before seeing adidat's picture I did think that it sounded like some sort of stretched mortise and, from the looks of it, I wasn't too far wrong.

Our ancestors, who did this to make a living, may have had to be more economical with how they achieved things but, for the current hobby woodworker at least, we can probably afford to spend a little more time on how we do things if we want.

 

[LuptonM]

The thinking was that, a full length groove would show up in the dovetails ends, right?

I've also found the Record 044 plough plane quite frustrating to use, maybe its just me though.

 

[adidat]

I must admit that before seeing adidat's picture I did think that it sounded like some sort of stretched mortise and, from the looks of it, I wasn't too far wrong.

nigel
stretched mortise/stopped groove not much difference. whats your point??

luptonm
your right, the way i used to do was with a router table then drop on and lift off when you got to the stop but this could be abit hairy at times. or just use a pluge router.

adidat

 

[nanscombe]

nigel
stretched mortise/stopped groove not much difference. whats your point??

Precisely that.

If there is little, or no, difference then it would be possible to use the same technique for both and treat it like a long mortise.

From my perspective I have no powered router and would look to do this, if I were to do it, using only hand tools.

 

[AndyT]

The thinking was that, a full length groove would show up in the dovetails ends, right?

Well, it is possible to design a drawer where this would happen, and so, logically, you might think of a stopped groove. The clever bit though is to position the groove and the dovetails so you can use a through groove without it showing. Many books only show over-simplified construction details, but it's pretty easy to find better ones. These are from a quick google image search and show what I mean:

The first diagram is from Geoff Malthouse's site, which is very good on this sort of important detail.

 

[Alf]

I just saw your comment about hand toolers trying to replicate power tool habits as a little sarcastic.

I'm sorry if you meant it as tongue in cheek.

'Twas neither - it's a genuine observation. Give two woodworkers the task of producing, say, a jewellery box with dovetailed corners. The router user is going to find it easier to through dovetail in the simplest way, and then use stopped grooves or rebates to take the top and bottom. The hand tool woodworker may rather plough straight through grooves, and elect to mitre the corners of the dovetails to hide them instead - because the amount of additional work on the dovetails is negligible in comparison with cutting stopped grooves. In comparison, the router user would have all sorts of additional work to mitre the corners. The end result is still two dovetailed boxes, but each woodworker has used techniques that better suit his/her tools. Make sense?

But naturally you can cut a stopped groove if you'd rather. I recalled overnight that Derek did a nice explanation on doing so with a router plane in his review here (about half way down the page), which may be useful.