Are these hand made ?

[Blister]

Are these hand made ?

PLEASE NOTE

I am NOT questioning the quality , its SUPERB / FANTASTIC / MIND BLOWING

I would love a full set

But quoted as Hand Made ? :?

http://www.holteyplanes.com/index.html

I have set it as a poll

 

[pedder]

 

[AndyT]

I've not read the whole site but I couldn't see any claim that they are. Hand Planes yes, but not hand made planes. Indeed, he says:

Machining produces metal parts to the required tolerance for dovetails of this quality but of course the peining can only be done by hand, a laborious and painstaking process requiring a level of skill to keep the true form and detail.


So they are not hand made in the way that Bill Carter's planes are hand made (hacksaw, files, hammer) but they combine advanced CNC machining with some hand processes. And everything is described and documented in detail - so no deception at all, I'd say.

 

[Harbo]

This is an old topic - just because he uses milling machines etc - he still sets them up and controls them by hand etc etc.

His attention to detail is second to none and perhaps can only be achieved by the use of precision machinery?

Of course these are hand made!

Rod

 

[Blister]

Taken form Carl's Web site

" Contrary to some opinion these planes are as near to handmade as you will ever get with this kind of finish and precision. "



.
these planes , Awesome :shock: :lol:

 

[jasonB]

I think "individually made" would be a better term.

J

 

[Karl]

I don't buy into this "hand made 'cos I operate all the machinery". So no, not hand made IMHO.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

I don't buy into this "hand made 'cos I operate all the machinery". So no, not hand made IMHO.

Cheers

Karl

If you use a router, bench drill or table/band saw on a woodwork project does that make it "not hand made"?


If it's on a production line with machines doing all the work then defo not, but in other areas where it's more grey I'd give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Kalimna]

I remain unconvinced that these are truly hand made. The presence of CNC milling equipment sortof precludes that. Exquisitely made? Beautiful objects that they are? Supreme skill in conjuring them up? Almost certainly.
To be truly handmade, then in my mind, those hands have to guide the materials being worked. In that way, with each step of each item made there will be minute differences each time. If CNC (for instance) is used, then those differences disappear.
There is obviously a great deal of skill in setting up that CNC machinery etc, as there is in producing jigs for routers/bandsaws/etc, so this is not a question of skill.
Using the quote from Carls' website mentioned above, even he admits that it isnt quite handmade, if you read between the lines. In other words, to achieve that degree of precision and finish, you must move beyond 'handmade'.
Anyhoo, thats my tuppence worth......

Cheers,
Adam

 

[yetloh]

Almost nothing is literally hand made unless you saw down the tree, convert it by hand and do everything else entirely by hand. It is really a pointless debate. I can only say that having seen the level of design, attention to detail and amount of handwork involved, I have no qualms about describing them as "hand made".

Jim

 

[Dodge]

To play 'Devils Advocate' here how can truly say that every piece of furniture they have made has been solely made using non-powered hand tools.

No cabinet maker these days could make a living solely using non-powered hand tools - The paying customer would not pay for the hourly rate taken

So come on how many of us truly make 'hand made' furniture by not using any powered equipment??



:roll: :roll:

 

[woodbloke]

This is a very old chestnut that's been hammered out countless times hereabouts. If you have a dip into David Pyes' the "Workmanship of Design" and the other title that escapes me (it's an age thing, like Waka) far more enlightenment will be revealed. It's a very complicated area to discuss on line but the essence is that there is nothing that is truly 'hand made'...'hand (tool/machine) guided' is probably more accurate, but as I say, the area of discussion here is complex.
Perhaps as Pye suggests, the only things that are truly 'hand made' are implements forged by a blacksmith from the raw iron. The issue then becomes...
...who made his tools, and how? You see how difficult the area is? To me, it's an interesting but ultimately pointless discussion. Best I think to acknowledge that however Karls planes are made, they're things of true beauty and precision...and I want one - Rob

 

[Alf]

The last three posts seem to be agreeing that virtually nothing can be truly described as hand made, yup? By which argument, Karl's beautiful planes are not hand made. QED. :wink:

As it is, I like Jason's "Individually made" rather a lot.

 

[Richard T]

I've spent many hours this last week making a start on a dovetailed infill.
I've been hacksawing, filing and forging. So far, nothing mechanical at all. But if I can ever face making another I will definitely get some band sawing sorted out; either by metaling up my biggun, or getting a bench top jobbie for the shed.
But then of course I'd still be filing away the saw marks, filing away the file marks, draw filing away the file marks, grinding and polishing. So that's where I have drawn my line - milling would take the fun out of it, and bandsawing would give me my life back.
Then pretty soon I will be using a drill press and a lathe (as I would really like properly round holes and bolts. )

Having looked at the work of all the dovetailed makers I can find, the only one who is hand tools only seems to be Bill Carter. He manages this by mostly sticking to wedged planes. On the rare occasions he wants to make one with a lever cap he says he gets them from ..... Karl Holtey
I think what drives people to make planes like this is to make the best tool they can and Karl certainly does that. Though I've yet to see a photo of one actually in use....

 

[yetloh]

Will this do?

Performing impeccably, as usuual on a piece of wild masur birch. Karl hates to see them entombed in display glass cabinets.

Jim

 

[Richard T]

Excellent! Thanks for that Jim. I can almost hear it too.

 

[GazPal]

Assembled and fine tuned by hand perhaps, but certainly not handmade unless materials are primarily prepared, tooled and assembled under the power of ye olde worlde elbow grease. The further removed craft operations are from hand powered and controlled preparation (Regardless of tools used), the lesser the product's relationship is to truly handmade goods.

Otherwise my old Ford Cortina is just as hand made as Bert Smith's sporty little Morgan down the road and squaring timber on a jointer thicknesser is just as hand made as my hand planed piece of 4x4.

 

[jimi43]

I don't give a monkey's nether bits whether the semantics of "hand made" goes on and on forever...nor do I care if they are made by Androids from the planet Zorg...

They are simply jaw droppingly beautiful.

I wish I could afford one...bootfair maybe...

Jim

 

[Scouse]

No cabinet maker these days could make a living solely using non-powered hand tools - The paying customer would not pay for the hourly rate taken

I do.

Granted violins/vilolas/cellos are not cabinets, but the same rules apply, as do the same tools. The only thing working off electricity in my workshop is the radio; clients will pay for individual pieces made by hand.

Pushing a router round a jig or whatever is simply not handmade, even if you are controling the tool. Does a router and a Leigh jig make a handcut dovetail? Of course not.

I know it is controversial and may make me unpopular, but arguments that electric hand tools equal hand made seem to be put forward by those who wish to establish the impression of a level of skill in their work which is not actually present, while having no real interest, and little involvement, in the process of hand production.

This doesn't mean I think routers are evil, just that more makers should come clean about the actual ammount of hand work utilised in their production; a particular problem in the musical instrument industry.

 

[Vann]

I wish I could afford one...bootfair maybe...

You, you jammy sod!! You'll find a Holtey in a bootfair or on in the back corner of an e-pay auction, probably within the year.... :lol:

Cheers, Vann