Finishing Cherry Veneer

[waqasr]

So I applied some b&q stain/varnish and it was blotchy so Ive sanded it off. Fresh start now and I want to do it right.

Im looking to achieve a dark rosewood-ish colour and will be spaying 2k automotive clear coat over it for the high gloss, then wetsanded and buffed to remove all orange peel for a mirror finish.

Im having a hard time figuring out how to achieve the colour I want without any blotchy-ness. What do you pros recommend. Thanks!

 

[ED65]

I don't think you're going to be able to achieve this smoothly on cherry using any conventional staining option. Cherry is one of the notorious blotch-prone woods, and made into veneer it just seems to make this property worse.

So conventional advice would be to use a coloured overcoat, e.g. a modern gel stain, but I'm not sure if that can safely be overcoated with 2k.

 

[waqasr]

Hmmm, seems im in bit of a pickle then. Yes Ive seen the General Finishes gel stain but wanted to run this by you guys first to see if there are other options. The 2k clear coat pretty much covers everything. I done a test piece with some random stain underneath it and it was fine.

Or, coat I drop a tint in the 2k clear and do it that way? I would think it should not have any blotchy-ness that way.

 

[ED65]

Tinting the 2k would be the way a lot of people would do this if they had the option, just like putting a candy colour on a car. Might be best to shoot a light coat of clear 2k first, then the tinted coats, then however many clear coats are needed.

 

[waqasr]

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes pretty much exactly like shooting candy! Ok so if most would do it like this then maybe I'll just have to. So you say to shoot a light thin coat first without any tint? Is this so the tinted clear goes on evenly and doesnt get absorbed?

 

[ED65]

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes pretty much exactly like shooting candy! Ok so if most would do it like this then maybe I'll just have to.

If they're able to work with 2k then yes, it seems the simplest option to do the whole job by spraying. Assuming you can mix the right tint of course. Three parts red, one part yellow and two parts black maybe?

So you say to shoot a light thin coat first without any tint? Is this so the tinted clear goes on evenly and doesnt get absorbed?

Yes, just for security. It might not be needed, but it wouldn't hurt to take the precaution.

 

[waqasr]

Thank you so much for your help ED65, will definitely look into this option. However if anyone else has any other advise, im all ears!

 

[custard]

I work quite a lot with American Cherry, and you absolutely need a strategy for dealing with the blotchiness. I find Cherry breaks down into two groups.

First is highly figured cherry, timber that has "curly" or "fiddleback" figure. I'll take some photos of this type of board when I'm in the workshop tomorrow. It's surprisingly common (in fact it must vie with Rippled Sycamore to be the most widely available, heavily figured timber that you can get with reasonable consistency in the UK). The test I apply is to look at a board from two completely different angles, if you get a holographic effect, where dark areas and light areas reverse when seen from different angles, then it's curly/figured, and you want a finishing routine that will accentuate that figure. In my workshop that usually means an oil finish. Here's a chest from Doucette & Wolfe that's made from a particularly spectacular curly cherry and I'm pretty sure has a simple oiled finish.

Second is Cherry with normal figure, again the test is to view the board from two completely different angles, if a dark patch remains dark in both views then the finishing challenge becomes how to minimise blotchiness. You've basically three choices. A coloured gel finish, which can be sealed with shellac if you want to add clear coats on top. That's a popular solution in the US, it works well enough, but to my eye it tends to deaden the timber and looks a bit artificial. Alternatively you can sand to far finer grits than you would normally use, out to 800 grit or even finer. You'll be surprised how effective this can be in reducing blotching. Finally you can finish with a clear coat, water bourne poly or whatever you prefer, and just let the timber age naturally. Cherry acquires an age patination incredibly quickly, in fact I have a real headache storing cherry because if one board overlaps another, even in my shaded wood shed, it will inevitably get a "bikini line"! Many makers take advantage of this "quick tanning" characteristic and leave cherry furniture outdoors to "sunbathe" for a couple of days. It may sound potty but I can assure you that it works. And once cherry has darkened like this any blotchiness then becomes much reduced, after a few years in a home it's almost invisible.

One final point, you say you're working with cherry veneer. If it's normal, commercial veneer (as opposed to saw cut veneer) then it's unlikely to be more than 0.6mm thick. So aggressive sanding is something to be avoided. Incidentally if you fancy working with curly cherry veneer you can easily source that too. I buy most of my commercial veneers from Capital Crispin, and they normally have curly cherry leaves available that are every bit as impressive as the Doucette & Wolfe example,

https://www.capitalcrispin.com/products.php

Good luck!

 

[custard]

I said I'd get back with photos illustrating some of the characteristics of Cherry as a timber.

This photo shows three boards of waney edged American Cherry which appear to be very different shades, but that's purely a function of how much exposure they've had to UV light. Leave them outside for a few sunny days, or just leave them in the normal domestic room for a year or two, and I guarantee they'll all end up exactly same dark, "suntanned" shade. American Cherry gets that aged patination faster than any timber I've ever worked with apart from possibly Yew or Cuban Mahogany. If you look closely at the shorter board in the front you'll see a "bikini line", this because this board was originally very long (I've just done a cross cut) and it was poking out above the board in front, so the top bit got more light. And this took place in my gloomy wood shed with very subdued light levels. The point is UV light is your friend when it comes to dealing with Cherry, before long the timber will darken naturally and that will obscure any blotching. In this respect Cherry is far easier to deal with than say pine, another blotchy timber but one that takes many decades rather than just a few months to darken.

Next up is distinguishing between blotch prone Cherry and figured Cherry. Remember, figured Cherry isn't that rare (I can source enough to offer it to my clients as a standard, albeit more expensive, furniture wood option). The trick is to sight the board from two very different angles, if there's a holographic type reversal of dark and light then it's figured, if dark stays dark in both views then it'll blotch. Look at the section of timber at the tip of the ruler in these two photos when seen from opposite angles. The same patch of wood is dark in one view but light in the other view (the ruler hasn't moved), so this is clearly a nicely curly/figured board of Cherry.

Finally this is a piece I'm making right now. This is the bottom half of a tall, chimney style Shaker cabinet in curly American Cherry. It's frame and panel construction completely made from solid timber, so I normally give a basic finish to the panels before fitting them into the frame, that's so any subsequent panel shrinkage won't reveal an unfinished line and to prevent the panels becoming glued during assembly. The key point is the panels have had one coat of dilute oil, but the frames are completely unfinished. In other words this is all exactly the same timber with exactly the same degree of figure, but you can see already how one dilute coat of oil has already made the panels "pop" with visible figure much more than the unfinished frame. So if your Cherry timber is figured rather than blotch prone then think about a finishing regime that's the exact opposite of what you'd use for normal blotch prone Cherry, and use oil to enhance the figure.

Good luck!

 

[waqasr]

Wow, thanks for the very helpful info Custard! Really appreciated. Im really not sure what kind of cherry mine is, ill post a pic up in a bit. What I find interesting is the sanding upto 800grit and letting it age in the sun. Is this before applying a stain?

 

[custard]

What I find interesting is the sanding upto 800grit and letting it age in the sun. Is this before applying a stain?

Certainly before, maybe even instead of.

Using a normal stain (say aniline dye) on normal Cherry will result in awful blotching. It'll gradually look better in time (the dye will fade in UV light and the wood will darken). Using the same stain on figured/curly Cherry will make the figure really stand out, but might even be considered by some to be that bit too flashy.

Using a gel stain on normal Cherry won't cause blotching, but it isn't a particularly great look. To my eye it's a bit artificial and seems like more High Street Boring, but that's just my opinion, you're the one who has to live with it and at least it won't be a blotchy mess. Using gel stain on figured/curly Cherry is just a waste of materials, that surely goes beyond being one man's opinion and is an out and out mistake because it will kill the figure stone dead.

If you really want a Rosewood shade (but don't want to pay Rosewood veneer prices) then maybe pop down to Capital Crispin (I see you're London based) and take a look at things like fumed Pear or fumed Eucalyptus. Even though Capital Crispin are a professional supplier they're not at all intimidating for the hobbyist, they'll happily sell you a single leaf and all their veneers are laid out on a big warehouse floor so you can wander around and browse.

Good luck.

 

[MIGNAL]

I'd be very careful of using any stain directly on figured woods, including figured Cherry. Whilst it does highlight the figure there's also a real danger of killing the lively effect that figured woods give, the holographic effect can easily be lost. The effect can be a 'forced' rather unnatural look. UV exposure is perfectly fine in this regards.

 

[custard]

I'd be very careful of using any stain directly on figured woods, including figured Cherry. Whilst it does highlight the figure there's also a real danger of killing the lively effect that figured woods give, the holographic effect can easily be lost. The effect can be a 'forced' rather unnatural look. UV exposure is perfectly fine in this regards.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Less of a problem with aniline dye more of a problem with pigmented stain, but in essence that's where I am too. Basically you need a really good reason to stain anything, and I rarely find that reason with Cherry.

 

[memzey]

Some brilliant guidance on this thread guys, just awesome. Without wanting to hijack it can I ask what oil you'd use to accentuate curly figure Custard? On solid stock that might get a final finish of wax over the oil?

 

[custard]

You could use Osmo, Danish Oil, or make up your own wiping varnish. Apart from the relative level of glossiness you'd be hard pushed to see much difference between them, so why not go for the simplest and just use Osmo (which despite being described as a "hard wax" is really an oil finish)?

Here's a sample board of figured Swiss Pear that was made up for a client (actually a pretty similar timber to Curly Cherry). Reading from left to right you've got sprayed lacquer, no finish, a heavy cut of blonde shellac, and the final panel is actually two different finishes, Danish Oil and Osmo. Now, can you tell me if the dividing line for those final two different finishes runs vertically, horizontally, or diagonally? I thought not.

So don't invest hours agonising between finishing choices that won't actually make much difference, better to invest that time and effort in sourcing great timbers or making great furniture. The key advantage of Osmo is that if you come to refinish in five years time you'll get exactly the same product, something that you can't really say about home brewed wiping varnishes (are you organised enough to write down and then re-create the precise formula?) or Danish Oil (where the manufacturers keep changing the ingredients but don't tell you).

Good luck!

 

[memzey]

Thanks Custard. I'll need the luck no doubt but with such good advice I might just sway the odds a bit more in my favour!