Hand Plane sharpening question

[myfacelackseyes]

Hi everyone:
So, I'm putting together a table build of scrap wood any need to plane them true in several directions.
my problem is, the plane I bought (a piece of rubbish homebase thing that doesn't even resemble a plane) won't take an even shaving; when both sides are taking a very fine cut the middle will chew a substantial shaving from the wood. I took the blade out and sure enough, the edge on it is slightly curved. However, I then borowed a very old plane from my uncle which seems to be of pretty decent quality (stanley No.5 it says). Its blade exhibits the same curve albeit a much less exaggerated one. So I was wondering, is this part of the design of a plane or should I hone the blades until I get a flat cutting edge?
thanks!

 

[Schtoo]

That curve is called 'camber' and can be very desirable. A deep camber will allow material to be planed away rapidly in a controlled manner (search for 'scrub plane'). A mild camber will allow wider, thinner shavings to be taken more easily and without tearing as the sharp corners cannot dig in and cause planing racks. A very shallow/small camber will allow very fine shavings to be taken without leaving tracks from the corners making the plane excellent for final planing and smoothing of a board.

A square edge is fine for most work too, and is essential for making the edges of boards square and true for edge to edge gluing.

Maybe the only thing I could say here is make sure the blade is sharp (always!) and try to take a lighter cut. You should not have to fight with the plane to take a shaving. I'm not saying it's not actual manual labour, but there should be no grunts, groans or curses when planing. Just a rapidly enlarging pile of curly bits of ex-board.

For now, aim for a thin shaving which will make planing easier and try to work out which way each board should be planed. Don't worry too much about anything else for now, just making shavings is enough.

Stu.

 

[myfacelackseyes]

I have the blades shaving sharp- I want to use the planes to clean up a reasonable straight jigsawed edge for gluing and finishing so should I just go for a completely flat edge? I suppose I will try it out with the cheapo plane and maybe leave my uncle's alone...

 

[Schtoo]

In that case, yes, square up the edge for edge gluing.

When planing, many small shavings rather than few thick ones will probably serve you best as well, especially if the plane is short and you'll need to plane-check-plane to get the edges straight and square.

If you decide to use the same plane to clean up the face of the boards, then you can hone/grind a small radius on the corners so that any tracks are at least softened.

If you're able to use your uncles plane as you see fit, go for it. It's likely better made and better performing than the cheaper one you have. You can't hurt a plane planing wood, that's what it was made to do!

Good luck and take your time, it's not a race.

Stu.

 

[Jacob]

The camber is essential.
You aim to take a narrow shaving with the middle of the blade. You can also tilt the blade and make use of the whole width by taking shavings off centre.
You don't need a flat blade for edge jointing (within reason).
By and large a dead straight edge creates difficulties and is best avoided, particularly as a beginner - for whom pronounced camber is really useful/essential.
You can refine it later when you are more competent with a plane.
No 5 is the perfect beginner's plane so I'd stick with that and have a lot of practice on your scrap wood.

PS avoid high speed bench grinders like the plague. You can spoil a blade in seconds, without necessarily knowing it, and be working with soft metal for years to come.

 

[myfacelackseyes]

Ok thanks for the advice! I kept the cambe on the stanley and ground the other blade flat for finishing the top, I'll post pictures when I'm done!

 

[Sawyer]

A bench plane won't work properly without any camber, though the amount will vary with type of plane, and the job in hand.

When edge-jointing, you can use the camber to help square it up. Eg. if the back part is 'high', move the plane over so the middle is cutting the high part whilst the camber cuts progressively less towards the middle of the wood. Grasp the nose of the plane (not the knob) and use your fingers as a guide for sideways orientation of plane/camber. This way, you can hold the plane down squarely to the edge: much better than trying to tilt the plane itself. Sorry, this is difficult to convey in words alone, but I hope you get the idea.

Some of the more specialised planes do require a straight edge - but that comes later...

Good luck with the project.

 

[woodbloke]

A bench plane won't work properly without any camber, though the amount will vary with type of plane, and the job in hand.

Some of the more specialised planes do require a straight edge - but that comes later...

Good luck with the project.

Without wishing to confuse the issue or 'muddy the waters', that statement is simply not true. I use straight edges on all my bench planes (with the exception of my wooden jack) with the corners of the blade rounded and thus far, no problems. Planes work equally well with or without camber and it's up to the user to decide whether or nae to use a cambered blade - Rob

 

[Jacob]

.... I use straight edges on all my bench planes (with the exception of my wooden jack) with the corners of the blade rounded and thus far, no problems.

It is possible to do that, but you would find it a lot easier to plane with a distinct camber. A "rounded corner" tramline is slightly better than a square one I suppose, but with a camber you don't get tramlines at all

Planes work equally well with or without camber and it's up to the user to decide whether or nae to use a cambered blade - Rob

Can't agree - it's much easier with a camber, on wide boards that is; on an edge it makes less difference except you lose the advantage as described by sawyer above. Try it.

 

[matthewwh]

My best advice would be to get hold of a handplaning DVD, David Charlesworth's is the one I started with and it improved my understanding of hand planing by orders of magnitude. Rob Cosman and David Savage/Daren Millman are other good ones that spring to mind.

I believe some of these are now available to rent if you'd rather not buy one.

 

[Paul Chapman]

David Savage/Daren Millman are other good ones that spring to mind.

I think the David Savage/Darren Millman one is particularly good.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[xy mosian]

it's much easier with a camber, on wide boards that is; on an edge it makes less difference except you lose the advantage as described by sawyer above. Try it.

I've not tried planing to a finish with a cambered blade in a plane Jacob. What degree of camber would you suggest. How is it possible to plane to a 'flat' finish? How do you remove the inevitable peaks between adjacent plane marks?
xy

 

[Jacob]

it's much easier with a camber, on wide boards that is; on an edge it makes less difference except you lose the advantage as described by sawyer above. Try it.

I've not tried planing to a finish with a cambered blade in a plane Jacob. What degree of camber would you suggest.

Camber - personal preference, usually depends on your sharpening kit.

How is it possible to plane to a 'flat' finish? How do you remove the inevitable peaks between adjacent plane marks?
xy

Same or similar problem flat or cambered. Planing is like taking a series of scoops from the surface. With a flat blade they are square edged flat scoops which somehow you have to joint seamlessly. Ditto cambered blade but with shallow radiused scoops.

Imagine a tub of ice cream and all you have to level it with is an ice cream scoop. First passes leaves scoop shaped hollows (width depends on how deep you go). Second pass you remove the top of ridges between the hollows - digging less deep. Third pass ditto. And so on, as far as you want to go, each time removing less from the ridges left from the previous pass, as smooth as you want.

Examination of a wood surface (magnified and under powerful light from the side) will show the tool marks (whatever tool you use; plane, sandpaper, anything). A shallow cambered tool will have tapered edges to the scoops, which will merge better than the corner marks from a straight edged tool
It's simpler than you'd think.
In fact I think people who plane with straight edges will probably find that if they look closely they are not as straight as they thought and they have been using a cambered blade all along - straight edges are difficult to achieve, but luckily they are also pointless!

 

[Jacob]

...
I believe some of these are now available to rent if you'd rather not buy one.

Any chance of a copy or a loan?

 

[xy mosian]

Imagine a tub of ice cream and all you have to level it with is an ice cream scoop. First passes leaves scoop shaped hollows (width depends on how deep you go). Second pass you remove the top of ridges between the hollows - digging less deep. Third pass ditto. And so on, as far as you want to go, each time removing less from the ridges left from the previous pass, as smooth as you want.

Well I certainly enjoy flattening the top of a tub of ice cream. Next time I need to plane a biggish surface I'll give it a go. Thanks Jacob, I'm always willing to try something different, if it doesn't sound too outrageous. This does not by the way.
xy

 

[Jacob]

... I'm always willing to try something different, ...

Have a go!
A cambered blades isn't "something different" - it's normal practice, and recommended in all the texts (probably. BB will be along any minute now!).
The obsession with straight edges, flat blades (and flattening stones :lol: ) is the newcomer - probably due to the newfangled fashion for honing jigs, which don't work well with camber etc.

 

[xy mosian]

Sorry Jacob, should have said 'Different for me.'.

xy

 

[Sawyer]

How is it possible to plane to a 'flat' finish? How do you remove the inevitable peaks between adjacent plane marks?
xy

Same or similar problem flat or cambered. Planing is like taking a series of scoops from the surface. With a flat blade they are square edged flat scoops which somehow you have to joint seamlessly. Ditto cambered blade but with shallow radiused scoops.

Imagine a tub of ice cream and all you have to level it with is an ice cream scoop. First passes leaves scoop shaped hollows (width depends on how deep you go). Second pass you remove the top of ridges between the hollows - digging less deep. Third pass ditto. And so on, as far as you want to go, each time removing less from the ridges left from the previous pass, as smooth as you want.

You're better off removing gentle scoops than harsh tramlines.

Generally speaking, I don't like a perfectly flat finish anyway, as I don't want to do hand-made furniture with an 'untouched by human hands' appearance. Leave that to Ikea, et al. Having said that, I'm no modernist and fully accept that many a job (and client) will demand that flat finish. That's where abrasives come in but don't overlook the humble, but magnificent, cabinet scraper (alas, useless on softwood, but superb on hardwoods).

The makers of old, especially pre-1700, often used no abrasives at all and left subtle scoop marks on surfaces: the sign of a sharp tool, skilfully used. Beautiful; craftsman's fingerprints I call it.

As I said though, it depends on the job, but I'd rather keep the abrasives firmly in their place: they are not a substitute for well-tuned tools, used properly.

 

[woodbloke]

That's where abrasives come in but don't overlook the humble, but magnificent, cabinet scraper (alas, useless on softwood, but superb on hardwoods).

The makers of old, especially pre-1700, often used no abrasives at all and left subtle scoop marks on surfaces: the sign of a sharp tool, skilfully used. Beautiful; craftsman's fingerprints I call it.

As I said though, it depends on the job, but I'd rather keep the abrasives firmly in their place: they are not a substitute for well-tuned tools, used properly.

Makers prior to 1700 didn't use abrasives simply 'cos there weren't any...had they access to the range of different mediums we use today, then you can be quite sure that they would have used them (as all of today's professional makers do) Some materials are so difficult to plane or even scrape (Australian lacewood iIrc) that sanding is really the only way that a decent finish can be achieved. A recent article in BW by Andrew Crawford was very revealing in that he almost exclusively uses abrasives (and abrasive systems) to finish his boxes and I would dare anyone to say that his creations are the worse for it. Similarly, there are some jointing procedures that can't be finished straight from and edge tool...for example sculptured joints where the use of a flexible medium is the only way that a finish can be obtained, so please don't knock abrasives. I realized long ago that as a maker I need to use the most appropriate means to finish my work, and if that means abrasives, then so be it. I can't post pics at the moment but will do so later :wink: - Rob

 

[Racers]

Hi, Woodbloke

I thoght they used shark skin for smoothing.

Pete