"Crown and W.G" 'Mortice chisels' a few questions

[Clinton1]

Hey all... I'm hoping I can get a little assistance in regards to my recent purchase of a set of mortice chisels.

I don't know the maker, but they have a crown, the initials 'W.G.' and 'cast steel' stamped on the blade.
They are a bolstered mortice chisel in the pig sticker style..... no hoops or ferrules. The tang is buried somewhere in the oval handles.

There are 5 in the set, sizes are 1/2, 7/16, 3/8, 3/16, 1/8"
Blade length from bolster is 6 1/2" on the 3 smallest and 7 1/2" on the two longest.
The two smallest seem to have the original handles.

My questions are....

- Does anyone know what timber would have been used in the original handles?
If this species is available over here in Aus, I'll have to consider rehandling as original to preserve a little character.

- How can I remove the two good handles?
Is it just a 'force fit' done when the blade has been heated? If I need to rehandle in another species, I'd like to remove the good handles and not damage the good wood so I can keep the old handles for later.

- The smallest two chisels seem too small for morticing, at 3/16" and 1/8". I can deflect the blade @ 1/8" on each end, just by using fingers and thumbs over the blade length.... would I be right in thinking these two would really only be used for cleaning out mortices, rather than chopping them out?

Apologies:
The only pic I have is from the seller, and I don't have a digi camera to take my own pics, except for the one in my phone. That might not be up to speed.

Anyway.... any assistance or info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Alf]

I don't know the maker, but they have a crown, the initials 'W.G.' and 'cast steel' stamped on the blade.

Not ringing any bells here. :-k

- Does anyone know what timber would have been used in the original handles?

Beech or boxwood, most likely.

- How can I remove the two good handles?

With difficulty if they're in good nick. You may be able to get away with the old rapping-the-handle-on-the-bench-while-holding-the-blade technique. Or you may not. The question is, if they're sound and useable, why remove them?

- The smallest two chisels seem too small for morticing, at 3/16" and 1/8". I can deflect the blade @ 1/8" on each end, just by using fingers and thumbs over the blade length.... would I be right in thinking these two would really only be used for cleaning out mortices, rather than chopping them out?

Hmm, dunno about that - never come across a situation where I could deflect them, not even the less than 1/8" ones I saw recently. Do you work out? As far as I know, all OBMCs are designed with chopping in mind.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Evergreen]

Hi Clinton

The only things I can add to the information already supplied by Alf is that the handles just might be ash, although I'd guess at beech from the photo.

I too would be a bit concerned at the ability to deflect a mortise chisel blade with my fingers. I've just got out my 1/8" OBM chisel by Thomas Ibbotson and tried to bend it (the blade is a full 6" long). Just the slightest flex? More likely it's my fingers giving in!

To be fair, with the smallest sizes, the amount of mallet work is negligible. A sharp, narrow gauge chisel meets such little resistance that the main value of the deep blade section is in its ability to lever out chips. That, and the ability to register on the side of the mortise to keep it accurate.

OBM chisels are great tools and a set like yours is unusual. Got to be worth a shot. Enjoy them.

Regards.

 

[Clinton1]

Thank you both for your thoughts and info.

Alf - I'd remove the two sound handles (the others are bodgy replacements) so I can have the set that looks like a set. :wink:
I'll keep the two sound handles in my 'box of bits' so they can go back on later if I feel like it.
I buy tools out of 'pocket money', so if I can buy old and cheap and make them them look good.... I feel good.

Bend test - did it again.

The smallest blade ( 1/8 ) measures 5/8" at the top of its side and tapers to 3/8" just before the bevel. If I brace my thumb at one end and pinky at the tip (and brace the handle in the other hand) I can get 1/2" deflection in the blade.
That would be good for a fencing sword... but rather special in a chisel?? :roll:

Thats bending it's side down, but just using a single hand to apply the force... not the way it would be stressed in use. I can put a fair amount of force on it by hand, but it doesn't seem right.
I don't have anything in carbon steel of a similiar dimension to check the deflection against.... I'm thinking it may have been annealed somewhere along its life?? Time will tell - if it won't hold an edge, re-hardening is no biggie.

Hopefully I'll be able to wrinkle out some info on the maker... is there an online resource for UK based tool makers 'marks'?

Thanks again.

Edit: Oh, and the set cost me as much as a single 1 Hirsch mortice chisel would.... thought I should add a gloat!

 

[Vormulac]

Hopefully I'll be able to wrinkle out some info on the maker... is there an online resource for UK based tool makers 'marks'?

Yes, she's called Alf...

 

[Evergreen]

Hi Clinton

I've done some more poking about but still can't locate any maker called "WG". Come to think of it, it would be a bit unusual for a traditional English maker to use only his initials although the respected American firm of Peck, Stow and Wilcox used to sell chisels under the title "PSW". It's possible that "WG" was in fact a retailer. I've got an old chisel that's marked "Parry and Son - Old Street" which was a well known tool merchants but who made it is anybody's guess.

A check for quality of manufacture in OBM chisels can sometimes be found in their dimensions. It was normal for widths to vary slightly so you can have "skinny" and "full" sizes but you'll find the bests ones also have slightly concave sides. In addition, they will taper very slightly from the tip back towards the bolster. I was once told this was to ensure clearance in the mortise as they went deeper.

Regards.

 

[Alf]

...so I can have the set that looks like a set. :wink:

Oh dear, there's no hope for you then... :roll: :wink:

Hopefully I'll be able to wrinkle out some info on the maker... is there an online resource for UK based tool makers 'marks'?

Yes, she's called Alf...

Chuckle. I'm merely the interface between the printed info and the forum. Long had a thought about trying to get an online list of British makers, their marks and brand names going mind you, but it's such a daunting task. :shock:

FWIW I went through all the Ws and the Gs in BPM* and HSMOB** with no luck. So I bethought me to try The Porch; found one reference in a For Sale list from 1997:

9/16" == 14" OAL, ~7.5" blade, "W.G. Cast Steel" and crown(?) symbol.

I also wondered about the info in Don McConnell's post here - specifically the fact that Wm Greaves referred to themselves as W.G & Sons. On the other hand I don't know that they ever used a crown mark, so that's a gigantic leap to make and I don't recommend it. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

*British Planemakers
**Hand-Saw Makers Of Britain

 

[Clinton1]

Yes, she's called Alf...

I had a laugh at that.

Well, thanks again, I appreciate your efforts.

I will keep asking around and if I find out who the maker is I'll let you all know.
I bounced around a little and found a cutlers listing of makers and found a few W. Greaves, but its a long draw without any pics of marks to look at.
I think the focus now should really be cleaning them up and having a play...