Chisel or technique?

[ScaredyCat]

I've only just started out doing woodwork and I'm currently just trying to get some basics down pat. I managed to find an old crappy silverline chisel I had neglected and honed the blade. On my workpiece, which is Sapele, I'm getting some nice smooth sections except for the inner edges which seem 'fuzzy' - just like the picture :/

What can I do to get rid of it. The picture makes it look more obvious than it really is because I've zoomed in. As you can see the lower part is nice an smooth and I don't seem to be able to get the chisel point closer in to the line.

Any tips for a n00b?

 

[Bod]

Can you post a picture of the chisel, particularly the sharp end.
That may give a better clue.

Bod

 

[D_W]

Can you elaborate on what you're doing. Are you just hammering into the sapele?

 

[ScaredyCat]

Front side

back side

Pointy bit

Looking closer it might be that a blind gibbon honed the blade...

 

[ScaredyCat]

Can you elaborate on what you're doing. Are you just hammering into the sapele?

No hammering, just using 'hand' force.

 

[AndyT]

I'm still not sure what you are trying to achieve. If you just push a chisel into cross grain, there is nowhere for the wood to go, so it will just be compressed by the wedge shape of the chisel, and that's not going to look nice. Try making a shallow cut first with a knife, then cutting back towards it with the chisel. Repeat and enlarge the cut, but always aim to have a weak, thin shaving separating from the wood left behind.

Your chisel may well be blunt, but your photos aren't sharp enough to tell!

 

[AJB Temple]

i would pay some attention to getting the back flat near teh edge and the bevels ground square, not all over the place as they are now. Chisels are simple tools and almost anything will work when sharpened properly. What you get with higher quality tools is more edge retention, more comfort in use and better aesthetics.

Pay attention to careful placement where you want to cut. If you use a mallet, strike the chisel cleanly - not lots of little wriggly taps. Practice on scrap - you will get it pretty soon.

 

[ScaredyCat]

I'm still not sure what you are trying to achieve.

The angle of that first picture probably not helping, I'm trying to create a clean rabbet (?) ( rebate?) but the edge is fuzzy.

If you just push a chisel into cross grain, there is nowhere for the wood to go, so it will just be compressed by the wedge shape of the chisel, and that's not going to look nice. Try making a shallow cut first with a knife, then cutting back towards it with the chisel. Repeat and enlarge the cut, but always aim to have a weak, thin shaving separating from the wood left behind.

I started out with a line that I used a knife to cut, I went softly the first time, then increased the pressure each time I went over the line. I then chiseled from the waste side towards that line. I think I saw that technique in a Paul Sellers video.

Your chisel may well be blunt, but your photos aren't sharp enough to tell!

Yes, sorry, lighting isn't so good in this house and my phone camera doesn't like low light.

i would pay some attention to getting the back flat near teh edge and the bevels ground square, not all over the place as they are now. Chisels are simple tools and almost anything will work when sharpened properly. What you get with higher quality tools is more edge retention, more comfort in use and better aesthetics.

Yes, I understand, I was just a bit too eager to get on so did the honing freehand (first time honing, more like first time (homer) ) - my honing guide should arrive tomorrow so I'll have another go.

I was looking at some Ashley Iles and Narex chisels over at Workshop Heaven which seem like I could build a collection as and when I needed them without breaking the bank but I wanted to practice on something. It's a silverline chisel so I figured it was disposable*, if I got it all wrong. *Like all silverline stuff.

 

[ED65]

A chisel doesn't have to be pretty to work well. This is especially true of the bevel. Plenty of people obsess over the shape and perfection of their bevels (I'm guilty of liking to make them look pretty too) but in reality it's really the edge that matters. As long as the edge is straight and very sharp the chisel will do what it's supposed to, the steel surface behind that is of much lesser concern.

Checking a chisel's edge on wood is a good way to test it because of course that's what we need it to cut, but there are levels of sharpness and to get an idea of how sharp it is things like the shaving test can be worth doing. Many a chisel which can pare successfully isn't sharp enough to shave hair painlessly (no tugging) from the back of your hand/forearm, and it's approximately that degree of sharpness that is needed for very clean cross-grain cutting.

It's a silverline chisel so I figured it was disposable*, if I got it all wrong. *Like all silverline stuff.

You might be pleasantly surprised, numerous cheaper chisels these days (often made of CrV rather than a plain carbon steel) are of perfectly reasonable quality and will take a good edge and hold it well enough.

 

[profchris]

A couple of things to try (the second still catches me out sometimes):

1. It's essential that the back of your chisel is flat at the tip. There are religious wars about how far back it needs to be flat, but for your purposes 1/2 inch or so will be workable. Your pics are blurry, but it looks as if the back might be rounded slightly at the tip.

2. When you sharpen you raise a burr along the cutting edge at the back. If the burr isn't all gone, you're not sharp. If I've just sharpened and my chisel won't cut properly i work the back again for a few strokes (i go sideways, which is probably wrong but works for me). That usually fixes it.

Or the chisel might be rubbish ...

 

[MrDavidRoberts]

I swear there are NO resources out there which would guide a complete newbie to chisels about how to sharpen them in clear language without knowing all the terminology and without having a previous experience. Same for sharpening Plane blades...

I had to learn it by trial&error mostly, however once you know how to sharpen one properly than if you look at all those guides/videos ONLY THAN you understand what they are talking about.
Get someone who knows what they are doing and ask them to show how to do it?

 

[Peter Sefton]

Looks to me like the back of the blade requires more work, I think is has become rounded either on an old oil stone or lifted during the sharpening process.

Flattening the back and refining the edge should improve the quality of cut.

Send me a PM and I will see if I can help.

Cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

I swear there are NO resources out there which would guide a complete newbie to chisels about how to sharpen them in clear language without knowing all the terminology and without having a previous experience. Same for sharpening Plane blades...

I had to learn it by trial&error mostly, however once you know how to sharpen one properly than if you look at all those guides/videos ONLY THAN you understand what they are talking about.
Get someone who knows what they are doing and ask them to show how to do it?

I am hoping I have gone someway to covering just about all the aspects you refer to Dave in a new video just released, trail and error is a good way to learn but can be time consuming and frustrating.

I will send a copy out to ScaredyCat to try and help.

Cheers Peter

 

[AndyT]

Cheap chisels can perform satisfactorily:

chisels-how-low-can-you-go-t74547.html

 

[bugbear]

Cheap chisels can perform satisfactorily:

chisels-how-low-can-you-go-t74547.html

The problem for beginners is multi-faceted lack of skill and knowledge; as a beginner you lack:

* knowledge to evaluate a tool (know good from bad)
* knowledge to fettle a bad tool to make it work
* knowledge/skill to use a tool

The result (almost inevitably) is a poor result and (worse) no knowledge of the cause or how to correct it.

An experienced worker could probably make a clean cut with a tool made from an old nail.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

But conversely, I don't think that just buying a different chisel will get the OP the results he wants.

Looking at the question "chisel or technique" I expect the answer will be that improvements are needed in both. On the chisel side of the equation it's more likely to be about the way the tool is prepared for use rather than the choice of which chisel.

I expect we are in agreement, just looking from different angles.

 

[bugbear]

But conversely, I don't think that just buying a different chisel will get the OP the results he wants.

Looking at the question "chisel or technique" I expect the answer will be that improvements are needed in both. On the chisel side of the equation it's more likely to be about the way the tool is prepared for use rather than the choice of which chisel.

I expect we are in agreement, just looking from different angles.

Indeed - I suggested 3 lacks, and buying a new chisel would help at most 2 of them.

BugBear

 

[ED65]

I swear there are NO resources out there which would guide a complete newbie to chisels about how to sharpen them in clear language without knowing all the terminology and without having a previous experience.

With respect, there are but you have to sift through a lot of stuff of varying quality (some very poor) to find it. But that's in the nature of all how-to instruction. And if we're to believe the ubiquity of Sturgeon's Law most of it is crap.

FWIW I can think of about four or five sharpening guides that take the uninitiated through the entire process start to finish clearly enough that you'll get good results IF you can follow the instructions to the letter, and a few of these cover the terminology first so you wouldn't have any doubts about what's being talked about. Although with a show-and-tell this is sort of covered as you go anyway so it's hard to get lost.

I think there's a problem with guides to sharpening period. The issue being that briefer guides can't go into enough detail to cover all the common eventualities, which leaves complete books or hours-long video guides on the subject; and to be frank, not a few of those are a bit lacking too Every ground-up guide that seeks to take the newbie with no experience whatsoever to repeatable good results needs to have a good handful of "If X happens this is what you did wrong..." and how to avoid all the common pitfalls in the first place such as dubbing of the back due to lifting, by using a too-yielding strop or by backing off on a dished honing surface.

 

[ED65]

An experienced worker could probably make a clean cut with a tool made from an old nail.

Funnily enough I was reading something just the other week which covered that almost exactly, making small tools from nails and other bits of mild steel using case hardening.

 

[bugbear]

I swear there are NO resources out there which would guide a complete newbie to chisels about how to sharpen them in clear language without knowing all the terminology and without having a previous experience.

With respect, there are but you have to sift through a lot of stuff of varying quality (some very poor) to find it. But that's in the nature of all how-to instruction.

So (again) our ignorant-by-defintion beginner is scr*w*d. (s)he doesn't have the knowledge to find the good stuff, and even clarity of presentation is not a reliably proxy.

BugBear